The Pound-for-Pound #1 Pound-for-Pound Rankings
The landscape of MMA has changed so drastically this year, I just don't think these rankings mean much anymore (not that they did in the first place, but still). It's possible that six months from now we could see a top-3 of Shogun-Aldo-Cruz. Who saw that coming at the start of the year? For now, I see it like this:
1. Anderson Silva
--The performance against Chael Sonnen was the most vulnerable we've seen him, but also his most inspiring outing to date.
2. Georges St. Pierre
--If St. Pierre demolishes Josh Koscheck, he might make his first appearance at the top of my rankings.
3. Mauricio "Shogun" Rua
--He's here more by default than anything else.
4. Jose Aldo
--In 12 months time, might Aldo become the new force at lightweight?
5. Fedor Emelianenko
--As much as I dislike the way he goes about picking opponents, I believe my positioning of him at No. 9 last time out was too steep a drop. He's still Fedor, after all.
6. Frankie Edgar
--The guy is legit. He could inch up these rankings if his total game has developed enough to avenge the Gray Maynard loss.
7. Dominick Cruz
--I'll be sold on him after a couple more defenses. After the Benevidez win, not so much.
8. BJ Penn
--It'll be interesting to see if Penn comes back with a special kind of fire. Maybe Edgar just has his number.
9. Jake Shields
--Shields is still criminally underrated in most rankings. The guy has great wins in two weight classes.
10. Brock Lesnar
--He faces serious threats in the next year, with Cain Velasquez up next and Junior dos Santos thereafter.
What do you guys think?
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GSP
A. Silva
Aldo
Shogun
Edgar
The rest is too much of a headache
"I don't care, hit him with your groin!"
GSP...then Aldo
they are the most complete fighters on the planet.
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Silva
as the #1 leaves alot to be desired. You’re saying he beats GSP if they were pound for pound the same size?
No bueno. That’s risible.
"If Michael Bisping ever addresses me in public comment again, I will bury him where he stands." ~ Chael Sonnen
More than that, it's saying that A. Silva beats GSP at the moment?
I’m not sold on that one bit. It would be a fantastic fight, but GSP now knows there is a path to victory over Anderson using wrestling and GnP. I don’t think the “X beats fighter Y, therefore should be higher” argument is necessarily a good one, but in this case the smaller guy has a great chance to win, which to my mind makes the argument moot.
Silva #2 no question. He could go up and defeat all but 2-3 of the HW’s in the UFC, and only Shogun (maybe Randy) could give him big problems at LHW.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
huh?
I don’t think the "X beats fighter Y, therefore should be higher" argument is necessarily a good one
isn’t that exactly what these rankings are?
"If Michael Bisping ever addresses me in public comment again, I will bury him where he stands." ~ Chael Sonnen
by RearNakedPoke on Aug 30, 2010 5:40 AM EDT up reply actions
No, if that were the case the p4p list would be the same as the top 10 HWs list.
P4P rankings are highly subjective because there are no set criteria and the guys on the list rarely fight each other because they are in different weight classes. To me, p4p means dominating your opponents while maintaining a consistently high level of skilled opponents.
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You completely whiffed on my point.
I’ll try again: It’s hard to rank a 185lb fighter as the top p4p guy in the world if #2 on your list is a 170lb fighter who would be favored to beat him.
Clearer?
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
see above
because that’s the point you made that i was referring to, we already agree that Silva isn’t #1
"If Michael Bisping ever addresses me in public comment again, I will bury him where he stands." ~ Chael Sonnen
by RearNakedPoke on Aug 30, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
No, I understand that we agree on their current rankings.
I guess my point is a little obscure, but it does seem pretty clear to me (for whatever reason I’m not able to communicate it at this time). It’s ok, it’s not a productive thing to discuss, apparently, which is alright. I’m not in the habit of beginning thirty-something long subthreads in some vain attempt to beat a position into someone else’s head.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
P4P has nothing to do with “If both fighters were the same size” who would win?
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by VeeisAnimated on Aug 30, 2010 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions
P4P
to me=who has the best overall skillset and has proven it against the best competition in their weight class.
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“pound for pound”
weight for weight.
Keep adding pounds to Whitaker, Pacquiao, etc. go up in weight and still continue to dominate a weight class. See Anderson Silva continue to dominate-and get his ass beat- and still pull off the W.
I think the whole well if Aldo fought Brock Lesnar at the same weight class are for pure fantasy MMA games at best. While on the other hand I can clearly say if Nate or Nick Diaz put on some weight how would they do against heavier fighters with their pitter patter punches and bjj skills. Easy answer, they would do well because they have actually done it. And to Jake Shields, I say, after defeating all the fighters out there at 170lbs. who are not signed to the UFC, what does he look like against bigger guys at 185lbs? See Shields versus Rob Lawlor and more importantly see Jake Shields come back from an awful Round 1 and dominate Pride 2 weight class holder Dan Henderson at 185lbs. (Oh yeah BJ Penn, when he puts on weight, not so much.)
People can say what they want about Shields but look at his level of competition and his last lost to back in 2006 a decision loss then compare it to GSP. No one can say Shields DID NOT face UFC-marketing level competition.
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by VeeisAnimated on Aug 30, 2010 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions
skillset shouldn’t be an issue unless there is contention between choosing two fighters (ie. its hard to know who’d win a hypothetically weight-class-less fight)
For instance before Silva fought Sonnen I ranked him higher than St. Pierre because of his percieved higher skillset. Now i know it doesn’t matter because St. Pierre would wrestle him down and grind the living shit out of him :)
"If Michael Bisping ever addresses me in public comment again, I will bury him where he stands." ~ Chael Sonnen
by RearNakedPoke on Aug 30, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm left wondering are you for real?
P4P has nothing to do with "If both fighters were the same size" who would win?
It’s called Pound for Pound for a reason.
I think the whole well if Aldo fought Brock Lesnar at the same weight class are for pure fantasy MMA games at best. While on the other hand I can clearly say if Nate or Nick Diaz put on some weight how would they do against heavier fighters with their pitter patter punches and bjj skills. Easy answer, they would do well because they have actually done it.
That’s the whole concept. This is fantastical. You might have missed the memo… If I’m to go off the remainder of that excerpt then you’d have me believe that outside of the top LHWs, HWs and A. Silva fighters like Jose Aldo putting on weight to fight at HW would lose and as such said “P4P rankings” would be farcical…
"If Michael Bisping ever addresses me in public comment again, I will bury him where he stands." ~ Chael Sonnen
by RearNakedPoke on Aug 30, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
I still run with P4P when I first heard the phrase in boxing.
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by VeeisAnimated on Aug 30, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah . . . most of these p4p rankings are more about popularity and what have you done for more recently and how exciting was it. Let’s ignore how many of these guys are fighting in one weight class for x number of years.
Fedor gets one loss and he’s ranked under Aldo and Mauricio Rua? Rua who lost to Forrest Griffin and had a poor showing in his rematch against Mark Coleman? Ok, Fedor feels the same way.
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by VeeisAnimated on Aug 30, 2010 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Fedor has one loss and he is 5th behind a Silva that came within 3mins of losing 50-45 on score cards, a Aldo, Shogun, and GSP and you had him at 9 before that? I can not agree with that at all. I can go with GSP and Fedor going 1 and 2 in eaither order and then Silva. After that, you can talk Shogun, Lesner, and Aldo.
First, stop ranking up to ten. It’s pointless. Second, talking about Cruz and Edgar in the same post as GSP or Silva is just criminal. Edgar I can give a pass, because he’s at least taken out a perenial great, but Cruz? That dude is not great. Just because someone has a belt doesn’t mean they should be ranked, because that’s a lot of what I’m seeing in these rankings.
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Agreed. An unproven champion has no business on a p4p list.
People should have realized that after MTB, Bowles and Mullet Boy were exposed.
I’m still uncomfortable with ranking Aldo because he is still more hype than substance.
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by villin on Aug 30, 2010 2:02 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Have Edgar fight Aldo
and then let’s see how he looks on the leaderboards.
I like vicious, dynamic KO’s as much as anyone. Unfortunately, Aldo hasn’t yet proven it against someone who is built to negate his strengths.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
Shogun is 1-2 against Top Ten light heavyweights in the last 3 years. I love Shogun and I’m a huge fan, but his record of late is not that of a Top 3 Pound for Pound fighter. Plunking Machida in the rematch doesn’t automatically put you in a Pound for Pound list, let alone Top 3.
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1. GSP
2. Anderson Silva
3. Frankie Edgar
My problem though is that the weight classes have gotten so damned competitive that a great 170lb guy like Koscheck would likely get smashed at 185. And a guy at 155 is likely to get demolished by the 170lb guys.
So then the conversation comes down to who is more dominant in their own weight class at the highest level. BJ Penn doesn’t belong on that list any more, although he’s still got big talent.
Fedor hasn’t fought at the highest level for awhile, so he’s out.
Anderson just got dominated recently, but outside of that he’s been death on wheels.
GSP has basically gone through everybody he’s faced recently and controlled every minute of every fight.
Edgar just dominated one of the top fighters in the world twice in a row, and left little doubt that as an undersized 155lb fighter, he definitively beat a guy who has dominated at that weight and competed well at 170lbs. Maynard probably beats him, but I’m not sure how much that hurts Frankie’s cause, to be honest. Maynard is huge and also an excellent wrestler.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
Way too soon for Edgar, especially since he is a huge question mark against bigger wrestlers.
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by villin on Aug 30, 2010 2:07 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I'll admit that I've been a Frankie Edgar mark
since he fought off that kneebar from Griffin. That said, let’s look at his notable wins list:
Jim Miller
Tyson Griffin
Mark Bocek
Spencer Fisher
Hermes Franca
Sean Sherk
BJ Penn x2
To my eyes, we’ve got a 145lb fighter who has run as difficult of a gauntlet at LW as anyone over the same period, and won against everyone except Gray Maynard. Gray Maynard was just too big for him last time out, but I’m guessing Edgar’s newfound in-and-out sniping style will make up most of the ground he lost to Maynard the last time.
It would be one thing if we were talking about Maynard for P4P contention. There’s not a great argument simply because he outsizes most of his opponents. Edgar should be fighting in the WEC at 145 (where I do think he’d have a good chance to beat Aldo), but instead he’s fighting at 155 in the premier organization in the world.
But like I said, I’ve been a fan since he was whacking away on Griffin’s kidneys for trying to sub him with a kneebar.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
WHOA . . . MAYNARD IS UNDEFEATED and he DEFEATED FRANKIE EDGAR
Please let these fighters live and accomplish something before we start crowning them anything.
Silva, GSP, and Fedor* all accomplished and continues to do their thing. Yeah Fedor finally lost a fight, oMG the world is going to explode. He didn’t get his ass beat like A.Silva.
Edgar? Aldo? Rua? Let’s see
Wait JAKE Shields is UNDER BJ Penn, Cruz and Edgar?
Shields is criminally underrated on this P4P list.
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