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One Last Chance At Glory: James Toney vs. Randy Couture

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via James Law/Heavy.com

Promoted to the Front Page from FanPosts by Matt Bishop

There is a dark chapter in combat sports that no one likes to examine. Fighters long past their prime, looking for one last chance at glory and more importantly one last big pay day, take on an impossible task. The great Joe Louis was savagely beaten and knocked out of the ring by a young, hungry Rocky Marciano. Oscar De La Hoya was beaten into submission by Manny Pacquiao. Most notably, Muhammad Ali stood around for 30 minutes and was used as a heavy bag for Larry Holmes. And on August 28th, James Toney is going to try his hand at MMA against Randy Couture.

 

Now let’s pretend you’ve been living in an MMA cave for the last six months, and you were blissfully unaware of this matchup. If I told you Randy Couture was fighting this weekend against a guy with no professional or amateur MMA fights, who was purely a striker with only nine months of grappling training, who is 41 years old and is fighting 60 pounds over his natural weight class due to being overweight……….you would laugh yourself silly. You would tell me that it wouldn’t even be a fight, and that Randy Couture would run rough shod all over this MMA neophyte.

 

But for some reason, when the words "James Toney, former world boxing champion" are added to that description, people become intrigued. They suddenly think that this guy facing Randy Couture has a legitimate chance at scoring a knockout. Never mind that James Toney passed his prime as a boxer before Randy Couture made his MMA debut. Never mind that James Toney isn’t a real heavyweight, who doesn’t really have that much knockout power. People think that because he was a boxing champion, he’s automatically equal parts George Foreman, Earnie Shavers and Mike Tyson. MMA fans who don’t really watch boxing think heavyweight boxers have some sort of soul sapping power, when in reality boxing is much like MMA – not all fighters are created equal. James Toney is a technician. He goes for accuracy and volume over power. While he does have many knockouts on his record, these are not conventional knockouts like an MMA fan would imagine, where the loser is laid out unconscious on the canvas. James Toney’s MO is to grind guys down in the later rounds, get them tired, then get them to cover up and flurry on them until the ref steps in. This would be the MMA equivalent of a fighter achieving mount and raining down punches until the ref stepped in.

 

Star-divide

James Toney’s boxing career the last several years has been spotty, at best. As Scott Christ points out :

Then the bloom came off the rose. Toney did beat WBA titlist John Ruiz by decision in April 2005. In May, it was reported that Toney had failed his post-fight drug test, and the win was taken off of his record. Toney tested positive for stanozolol, one of the more popular performance-enhancing anabolic steroids. Toney claimed the steroids were prescribed to him to treat an arm injury that he got in the Booker fight, and was also sued by Ruiz.

He beat journeyman Danny Batchelder by split decision in May 2007, but failed another drug test, popping positive for stanozolol and boldenone. He was fined $2500 and suspended for a year, but appealed the suspension by claiming that someone had tampered with his water bottle. The decision was not reversed -- hell, Batchelder failed his drug test, too, for stanozolol and oxandrolone, plus a "high rate of testosterone," consistent with use of HGH.

A rematch with Rahman in July 2008 aired on Fox Sports Net, quite a step down from the glitz and glamour of an HBO fight. The two worn-out heavyweights went three rounds, with Toney appearing to win a TKO-3 when Rahman couldn't continue due to a cut over his left eye. The California State Athletic Commission overruled the result, declaring it a no-contest because the cut had come from an accidental headbutt.

In December, Toney returned to the airwaves on Versus against Fres Oquendo, another never-quite-was of the heavyweight ranks. Toney won a split decision thanks to an eighth round deduction against Oquendo (the fight otherwise would have been a draw). I scored that fight widely for Oquendo, and truly feel he was robbed of a win that night. Toney was highly ineffective. Toney's next fight came in September 2009, a two-round win over an unknown named Matthew Greer. Greer buzzed Toney, with the silver lining of the easy but troubled win being that Toney, at 217 1/2 pounds, looked in much better shape than he had in the last six years.

And that’s what you will be getting on Saturday against Randy Couture, folks. A washed up pro boxer who has gone 4-2-1 and 2 no contests in the last 5 years against meager competition, and has tested positive for steroids twice in that time. In that exact same time frame, Randy Couture has gone 5-4. He submitted Mike Van Arsdale and Mark Coleman, TKO'ed Gabriel Gonzaga, dominated Tim Sylvia and won a close decision over Brandon Vera. He has lost to Chuck Liddell twice in that time, was stopped by Brock Lesnar and dropped a decision to Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira. Couture has definitely had more success against a higher level of relative competition than James Toney has in the last 5 years.

 

This is all a moot point though. Anyone who has watched UFC 1 through 10 knows that a one dimensional striker will lose to a grappler every single time. James Toney has not learned anything of note in the nine months he’s spent doing MMA training, and to suggest that he’d be able to thwart anything that Randy Couture throws at him in a grappling context is laughable, at best. Randy Couture’s clinch grappling gives very experienced, well rounded MMA fighters trouble. Brock Lesnar and Brandon Vera, two fighters with wrestling bases, had trouble adjusting to it. Once the fight hits the mat, Randy Couture is a very good submission grappler – let’s not forget that this man went to a draw in a jiu-jitsu match with world champion jiu-jitsu ace Jacare. Once Couture has Toney on  the mat, it will just be a matter of how sadistic Couture is feeling that day. He can either ground and pound Toney to a stoppage, or work for a submission. Honestly, I feel that Couture will most likely strike Toney on the ground just enough to get him to open himself up for a basic submission like a rear naked choke or arm triangle, which Randy will gladly take.

 

Now, there’s a possible opening for Toney to get some offense in. Couture has made it pretty clear he wants to use leg kicks on Toney, and the counter for a leg kick is usually an overhand right. And Toney is a fantastic counter puncher, if anything. The problem? Knowing how to counter a leg kick with a punch takes an incredible amount of practice, and I seriously doubt James Toney was willing to stand around in the gym and let guys kick him while he practiced countering them. Boxers traditionally have hated to get kicked, and I’m sure James Toney is no different.

 

Now, could James Toney win this fight? Sure. He could land a punch clean on Randy Couture’s chin and knock him out. Randy is 47 years old and really frail. We’ve seem him get dropped in quite a few of his fights the last few years. The problem is, in the fights we’ve seen him get dropped in, he usually at least gets into a clinch before he gets knocked down. Toney has, at best, a 30 second window to knock out Randy Couture. Those odds don’t favor him. Sure, it could happen. Three super models could show up at my door any minute with a briefcase full of cash too, but I’m not going to hold my breath waiting for it.

 

The bottom line is this – James Toney couldn’t get a fight in boxing, so he trolled Dana White until he could get a fight in the UFC. This is his last big pay day. And much like all those great boxers from the past, he will go out and get embarrassed and embarrassed badly. And people will sit around later and question why the fight was made in the first place, and why we wanted to watch it.

 

And you know what’s even sadder? After Randy Couture beats up James Toney, we will see him in this same position in a year or so, when he gets a light heavyweight title shot. He will be given one last shot at glory before he retires. And like Muhammad Ali's so called fight with Larry Holmes, it will be hard to watch. But we will all tune in to watch it, and deep down we’ll all think he has a shot too pull off the impossible, even though we will all know what will happen at the end of the night.

The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of MMA4Real readers and do not necessarily reflect those of MMA4Real editors or staff.

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Puncher's Chance

The one thing Toney has going for him is a puncher’s chance. The one thing I think he may deviate on from your comments is his striking style. Clearly, when training for a 12 round boxing match, he would need to pace himself, otherwise blow his wad too fast. In this case, I think the opposite is true. He has to know there’s no way he can keep up with Randy’s conditioning. And he’s training for a 15 minute fight TOPS. So I suspect, he will come out guns a blazin’ and punching as hard as he can. That’s his only chance. Pull up the chair to the blackjack table, double down and hope for the 21. So Toney’s got a puncher’s chance for sure, especially considering that I think he’ll be holding nothing back. And like you said, Randy can’t take a punch like he used to. Just to be safe, I think his best bet is to forget the normal dirty boxing stuff, and just take the lard ass down and beat him up.

by lessardrp on Aug 26, 2010 2:09 AM EDT reply actions  

Rob,
Well, the problem is really two fold.

One, Toney isn’t exactly overly endowed with knockout power. Even if he lands a shot on Randy, there’s no guarantee he’ll put him out with it. Minotauro Nogueira and Brandon Vera landed HARD shots on Randy that dropped him and they couldn’t manage to put him away. Toney’s never been in a situation where he can pounce on a guy he’s dropped before. I don’t even know if he’s comfortable enough with the ground game to pounce on Randy if he dropped him.

Two, just coming out and swinging for the fences leaves you incredibly exposed for being taken down when you don’t have any takedown defense to rely on. Furthermore, that’s never been Toney’s MO. That’s totally outside of what he’s done his entire career. He’s always been a counter fighter who sits back and lets the other guy come to him. Asking Toney to come out swinging haymakers is like asking Randy to throw spinning back kicks. It’s not really what either man do.

And dirty boxing Toney is the least of Couture’s problems. Randy could clinch Toney against the cage for 15 minutes and grapple rape him if he wanted to and there’s not much Toney could do about it – Toney just doesn’t have that Greco background to defend against it, and a boxing clinch is completley different than a Greco clinch. Couture’s problem is that he keeps hinting that he wants to pick Toney apart with leg kicks. I’ve got no problem with Randy throwing a leg kick to setup a takedown, but if he’s planning on standing up for an extended period of time with Toney and chopping him down with kicks, that’s an unneccisary risk he’s taking. Could Randy do it and not get clipped? Most likely, but there’s no reason to do it beyond proving a point. Randy could run out of his corner and take James down in the first 5 seconds if he wants to. He doesn’t need to soften James up with leg kicks. It’s not like he’s fighting Pedro Rizzo at UFC 34 here.

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by Brian Mayes on Aug 26, 2010 2:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think Randy will win. All I was getting at is that to me it seems like asking for problems putting yourself in a position where you are allowing the ex boxer to showcase his 1 dimensional skillset. So for sure, I agree that screwing around on the feet is not smart. And although I totally agree that the clinch is different than what boxers usually do in close, if it were me, I wouldn’t even take the chance of eating a hook or uppercut in close like that. To me, this is a risk management thing. Randy has nothing to prove keeping this match on the feet at all. In fact, it would show the MMA advantage taking him down and taking him completely out of his game. So I would like to see Randy talk up the whole dirty boxing and leg kick strategy as a diversionary tactic, ignore it in the octagon, take his butt down and do some MMA stuff on him. The most fitting imo would be a submission. Beat the boxer, in the octagon, with an MMA move I say. I think you are correct in your assessments either way. But I wouldn’t even take the chance of letting Toney get in a highlight reel chin shot. Should be entertaining regardless.

by lessardrp on Aug 26, 2010 4:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Most likely Randy puts Toney on the canvas ASAP, works him over and submits him in short order. I agree that Randy gains absolutley nothing by allowing James to stay on the feet, although I think he might want to prove a point to James by picking him apart with leg kicks. If Randy just takes Toney down and submits him in the first minute of the fight – which he can easily do – Toney will be out there flapping his gums saying he didn’t fight like a man. Of course, Toney has already said that “kicking is for girls”, so I don’t think that will do much to shut him up either. If Randy grabbed James in a collar tie and knocked him out with 500 upper cuts, James would still find something to run his mouth about.

Realisticly, this is a bit of a strange fight for Couture. No matter what the outcome, people aren’t going to be impressed. Unless he went out there and straight outboxed James Toney, no one is going to be blown away with Randy’s performance. I don’t think that’s what Randy is there for though. This is a huge, huge pay day. This is probably going to do around a million PPV buys, and Randy gets a % of that. This is basically free money for Randy. He hasn’t had an easier fight, stylisticly, since he fought Tony Halme in his MMA debut at UFC 13. And he will most likely beat Toney in the exact same fashion he beat Halme – double leg right out of the gates, take the back, rear naked choke.

Randy gets to go out there, shut up a guy who’s been running his mouth about him and his buddies, and make a whole lot of money. Pretty easy to see the motivation.

It will be fun to see Randy put on an epic ass kicking against an unlikeable loud mouth. It harkens back to his fights with Tito Ortiz and Tim Sylvia.

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by Brian Mayes on Aug 26, 2010 5:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good stuff, man. Yeah, if Randy tries to stand-up with JT for any kind of prolonged period of time then he deserves to lose. Won’t happen, though. Couture will do his job, get him down and end it. The only real intrigue I see at all is that this marks the first time in MMA’s EXTREMELY brief history where we’ve seen a guy that could also step into a boxing ring and go rounds with any pro heavyweight boxer on the planet. I can see why that element might intrigue people as far as wondering how he’ll do in the MMA bout. Having said that, though, Randy should easily be able to do something that no boxer ever has: finish James Toney. It might NOT be easy for James to show his face in Detroit again after Saturday.

by Rich Wyatt on Aug 26, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s a very, very good point Rich. James is most likely going to get put away for the first time in his combat sports career on Saturday night.

Honestly, I don’t think James really knows what he’s getting into. For crying out loud, the fight he really wanted was Brock Lesnar. He’s training with a Kenpo instructor who doesn’t teach MMA……..he teaches self defense tactics. Note that James left a real MMA camp for this garbage.

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2010/8/24/1648291/trevor-sherman-the-man-training

You’ve got an out of shape, past his prime pro boxer who’s training with a goofy Kenpo instructor who’s probably got Toney convinced that he’s got some sort of death touch now. And this guy is fighting a very serious, in shape mixed martial artist. No one would take this seriously if it wasn’t in the UFC.

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by Brian Mayes on Aug 26, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nice write up, and a 100% spot on assesment of Toney's boxing style

  But why, on earth does JT have that guy training him? I was watching the show and the guy on the mat with JT was terribad. That training made me think of what the trainer told the promoter in the “Great white hype”, that “Credilbe? Sure I can make him credible, ….till the fight starts anyway.”

by oggsmash on Aug 27, 2010 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I honestly don’t know. James Toney stopped training with a real MMA camp with Juanito Ibarra and started training with this goofball. Apparantly he thought that this would be more productive than training actual MMA techniques. I can’t think of anything he would learn with Kenpo guy that would be aplicable to a high level MMA fight. For crying out loud, from what I’ve read his trainer just started learning basic grappling techniques a couple years ago.

The fact that James Toney weighted 237 pounds, which is the most he’s ever weighted for a boxing match before and 20 pounds more than what he weighted for his last match less than a year ago, tells you how seriously he’s taking this.

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by Brian Mayes on Aug 27, 2010 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nice job on this Brian

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by Kelvin Hunt on Aug 26, 2010 8:16 AM EDT reply actions  

Thanks Matt!

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by Brian Mayes on Aug 27, 2010 2:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

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