Comparing Brock Lesnar's Potential Run Against A Prime Fedor Emelianenko
by Kelvin Hunt on Jul 6, 2010 11:49 AM EDT
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PrintBrock Lesnar made a miraculous comeback this past weekend at UFC 116 against Shane Carwin. However, there is still some resentment towards the guy for whatever reason. I've read ridiculous things like:
"The only reason he won was because Carwin gassed"
"He turned and ran away from Carwin like a little girl"
"If Fedor had rocked Lesnar he would have finished him"
Lesnar is now the #1 heavyweight in the world with Fedor's loss against Werdum last week according to most(including mine) rankings. A fighter like Fedor comes along once in a lifetime or so we thought. The guy's record is almost impeccable and he's fought the best of the best of his era. Most notably the two victories over Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira and Mirko Cro Cop, who at the time were the #2/#3 ranked heavyweights in the world in 2004-2005. That's Fedor's claim to fame, although he has destroyed a host of other talented and not so talented fighters along the way. Just as of last week we were talking about Fedor always being the greatest heavyweight of all time. However, I'd like to ask a question.
Could Brock Lesnar surpass Emelianenko's legend? Follow me:
Lesnar has already beaten the likes of Heath Herring, Randy Couture, Frank Mir, and now Shane Carwin. He has a murderer's row of opponents lined up in that he'll be facing Cain Velasquez next. Then there are potential fights with Junior Dos Santos, re-matches with Carwin and Mir as well as Roy Nelson. All of those fights are against top 5 heavyweights, save for Nelson and he's no slouch regardless of how much you want to pick at his physique.
The only missing piece in the puzzle would be a showdown with Emelianenko, and he can't really control that. So if Lesnar gets past Velasquez, Dos Santos, or Roy Nelson and then re-matches either Mir or Carwin and wins, does that run surpass what a prime Fedor was able to do in 04-05?
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Cain is my new favorite heavyweight. . Except for that he can’t finish. I think Cain keeps it on the feet with lesnar for the majority of the first three rounds. Gets takin down a few times but shows he can grapple with any heavyweight out there. Then finishing a gassed lesnar in the fourth!!!! lol I’m such a dreamer
Cain has only had one fight go the distance.
Lesnar will probably never be considered “Greater than Fedor”. Fedor is Jim Brown to Lesnar’s Barry Sanders, for lack of a better comparison. Barry while great and some consider the greatest never came near to what Jim Brown did. Also If Shane didn’t gas he could have finished Brock I still have a rematch as a coin flip.
Ride the Tiger!
by doonerthesooner on Jul 6, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
That rematch will be SO HUGE!
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VEe is ANIMated!
by VeeisAnimated on Jul 6, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Very dope anaolgy, dooner.
Fedor is Jim Brown to Lesnar’s Barry Sanders
RIP, Coach Wooden.
Thank you, Geoff Petrie.
Uhh, 7 of Cains 8 fights were TKOs.....
Where do you get he cant finish?
If Lesnar makes that run, I would put him beside Fedor, probably past him. I just dont think he will make it, and I think if we toss in a Carwin rematch, there is going to be an upset apple cart for him. Cain is a bad match for LEsnar, DOs santos I am not sure of, as I have not seen enough of his Take down defense/ground recover/ground game, but standing he is another fight that is potential one and out for Lesnar.
Will be interesting to see.
It’s not outside the realm of possibility. And no, he wouldn’t necessarily have to fight Fedor (though it certainly wouldn’t hurt) to surpass him. Couple of names missing from Fedor’s resumé as well.
It’s a long road to get there. But yeah, being in the UFC pretty much insures all of his fights are going to be against relevant (top 10 competition) for the duration of him holding that belt – the possibility for a more condensed quality run than was available to Fedor at the time.
Many, many tough fights to get there.
"I don't care, hit him with your groin!"
Time will tell, it's that simple.
Being able to beat guys you’re supposed to beat and the guys that can really challenge you is something special. Fedor has done that for quite a long while.
When people start to question Fedor’s level of competition I say look at the history of boxing and MMA. There are often times when a serious underdog or relatively unknown fighter (or fighter who simply did not get a shot) comes in and SHOCKS the world. See: Buster Douglas defeat Mike Tyson, Matt Serra make GSP tap out due to strikes and virtually unranked Brett Rogers pummel former UFC champion Andrei Arlovski in mere seconds.
Note, Werdum, a world champion BJJ fighter submitting any fighter is as shocking as Demian Maia submitting Chael Sonnen. On a some-what unrelated note, I agree with some recent sentiments . . . most immediate post-fight reactions are really over-blown.
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VEe is ANIMated!
I just don’t see how anyone can say no one will ever be greater than Fedor…….I guess it’s like that in all sports though…Babe Ruth, Michael Jordan, Jim Brown, John Elway….yet there always seems to be some players that surpass or at least challenge for supremacy when it’s all said and done…
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People who are stuck in the past will never relent in espousing the superiority of their favorites.
This gets driven to the extreme, where people will actively discredit another athlete/performer’s accomplishments simply to preserve their internal image of their favorite.
That’s exactly what we’re seeing with Brock. People are (with good reason) concerned about Brock eclipsing any previous HW’s popularity/ability due to his unique gifts. These same people generally love the yesteryear of MMA, so they hold that nothing can ever be better than Fedor.
Babe Ruth is, without question, the most impressive player for his age in the history of baseball. But today, there is no question he would be lucky to run Adam Dunn’s career. Albert Pujols, Alex Rodriguez and Barry Bonds are far superior to Babe Ruth in terms of absolute ability, and their accomplishments are more impressive out of context. But in context of era and relative talent, Ruth is unparalleled. It’s the same with Fedor, in my opinion.
Brock at least has the potential to turn in a Pujols-esque career, and that absolutely terrifies Fedor fans.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
I don't think the rematches are necessary for comparison sake because said rematches
may never happen, especially one involving Mir. Mir has much work to do. Anyway, I think there is a possibility for Brock to surpass Fedor, but he has a long road ahead to reach that point.
Calling the Upset
I have said this for months now. Cain Velasquez will dethrone Lesnar. Doubt it all you want. he will stop the takedown and stand with Brock. he will win.
Death is Certain Life isn't...Do the dumb sh*t...Be Cocky...If u do u, be prepared to be followed by some, hated on by the rest.
Learn to control yourself and through this you can control others.
It’s very possible. Wouldn’t be that big of a upset to me, though I favor Brock at this point in time.
"I don't care, hit him with your groin!"
by 3PA on Jul 6, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
no way he stops the takedown while giving up a 25lb or greater weight advantage.
"Be yourself, don't take anyone's shit, and never let them take you alive." ~ George Way
by RearNakedPoke on Jul 6, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
You mean the way Randy couldnt stop Lesnar from taking him down.....
Cain can most definitely stop Lesnar from taking him down. Most importantly though, if he does get taken down he wont lay flat on his back like a helpless, never grappled before neophyte the way Mir and Carwin did. I know Mir is a Black belt, but his bottom Game is flat out bad, always has been, he is quick for a heavy and aggressive with chasing limbs, just not so good at actually being on bottom against good, big guys.
You mean the way Randy couldnt stop Lesnar from taking him down…..
i forgot Cain was/is an Olympian wrestler, my bad. thanks for jogging my memory….
i’ll enjoy seeing how much say Cain has in movement from the bottom when that gorilla is on top of him with ahammer fists and/or chokes… for the sake of cometitiveness i hope im wrong
"Be yourself, don't take anyone's shit, and never let them take you alive." ~ George Way
by RearNakedPoke on Jul 8, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Cain Velasquez has very good wrestling.
He wrestled at his current weight (or thereabouts) during his collegiate career, and was always going up against guys who are significantly larger than him. I mean, I can’t find many videos, but he’s used to dealing with guys the size of Cole Konrad (a sumo-looking dude from Lesnar’s camp who is also a world-class HW wrestler).
That said, I think MMA is a little different from wrestling when it comes to comparing overall grappling ability. In collegiate wrestling you’ve got three two minute rounds, and action is always spread pretty evenly between standing, down and top positions to begin the rounds. I think Lesnar’s top control is too good, and five minute rounds make it a lot harder on the bottom guy carrying all that weight, rather than the two minutes in collegiate wrestling.
Still, a wrestling-in-reverse gameplan might work ok for Cain. He’s certainly quicker than Brock laterally. If he gets taken down, though..he’s going out. Kongo knocked him pretty silly a few times, so while Cain recovers very well, I think Brock closes the deal after stunning him in Frank Mir fashion.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
oh no doubt Cains wrestling is sweet, im a huge Cain fan. Lesnars is better. its a NC.
"Be yourself, don't take anyone's shit, and never let them take you alive." ~ George Way
by RearNakedPoke on Jul 8, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
easy
This should be pretty easy to figure out. Let’s see, Fedor’s unbeaten streak was something like 9 to 10 years, right? Now the last time Brock lost was in 2008 (a legitimate loss by the way) and if you tack on 9 to 10 years, that puts you somewhere around 2017, 2018. Brock was 30 or 31 when he lost so if you think he’s not going to lose by the time he’s 40, I think you’re all dreaming. The run Fedor put together is unbeatable. He stands alone and always will.
also
Also, the author of the article mentions Heath Herring. Fedor beat the guy when he was in his prime, not when he was washed up. A to throw Randy and Mir in there is kind of a joke. I love Randy but is he 50 yet? Mir wouldn’t last with Fedor and he did beat Brock. Brock can rough people up but the true skills of MMA will be his downfall. Someone will find a way thru his brute force and find his weakness. It’s just a matter of time.
by ort777 on Jul 6, 2010 1:48 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Well
considering that Lesnar’s loss to Mir was akin to Fedor’s loss to Werdum..everyone would still favor Fedor in a rematch…So I’d say that it means relatively little at this point….especially since he destroyed Mir the second go round…not to mention he was destroying Mir the first go round. The article points at the number of top guys that Lesnar could potentially defeat…compared to the number of top guys that Fedor defeated….not their WHOLE careers…you have to condense it in that sense….since Fedor has almost a decade worth of experience over Brock.
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by Kelvin Hunt on Jul 6, 2010 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
apples to apples
I see your point. I guess when I read “Could Brock Lesnar surpass Emelianenko’s legend?”, I assumed you were attempted to stretch beyond the 2004-05 time period. It’s more clear now that I re-read the article. Something that would make this comparison nearly impossible though is Fedor’s 8 fights in this stretch. It seems to me guys back in the day fought with a lot less time off. Sometimes guys even fought twice a day – that would never happen in this day and age. I don’t think Brock can get through the guys mentioned above in time to make a fair comparison…if he stays healthy.
That's a good point regarding number of fights in yesteryear compared to nowadays.
I’d counter by saying that I believe the talent gap between #1 and #10 is much smaller today than it was in Fedor’s heyday, especially in the HW division we’re discussing. The #10 guy’s relative skill five or six years ago would be lucky to hit #15 or #20 today, so there’s that to consider.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
Oh..not saying I disagree
which is why I used the key word…..potentially….but IF he did….I mean…that would be comparable or even greater than what Fedor did IMO….today’s version’s of Velasquez, JDS, Carwin, Mir may very well surpass that of what Nogueira and Cro Cop brought to the table back then…of course different rule sets of PRIDE and the UFC withstanding….which would change things somewhat…but still..
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He's going to lose fights along the way
They all will. They won’t have untouchable legacies. This is post Jordan NBA style.
alright
Alright, I get your point. I’ll lay off and stop giving you a hard time. I am a huge Fedor fan and hate to see anyone cheapen his accomplishments but I don’t think you’re trying to do that. I get a little miffed when people start trashing him out there in the world wide web because he won’t face UFC opponents but that wasn’t his doing. Blame Dana White and M-1, not Fedor. I don’t think he’s backing down from anyone but these contract squabbles are going to be trouble from here on out for everyone. Dana White isn’t Don King yet but give it a few years.
The culprit is M-1 in regards to those negotiations...
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M-1
I have a hard time believing it’s all M-1 with White’s massive ego but assuming you’re right, what’s going to happen now that I hear M-1 is broke?
Pretty sure White gave them all the standard stipulations he gives other fighters
I have no idea what M-1 will do….since Fedor lost….White will probably try to low-ball them since most of Fedor’s leverage is no gone with the loss to Werdum. Which they will probably re-ject…since they rejected all the other offers….if you don’t think it’s M-1…then why did SF sign Fedor….then after one fight…have to renegotiate THAT deal….to have him fight Werdum? Yep…there you go.
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Problem with the "standard"
Is it allows Dana to massively cut pay if a fighter gets a loss (for his next fight) and it also doesnt allow a fighter to leave the UFC undefeated, meaning if you have a 3 fight deal, and win all three, you automatically are claused into another obligated fight, rather than having your contract end and being allowed to leave.
Those were major problems for Fedor and he said so. Both sides have issues the other wont budge on, and Fedor doesnt like dana, at all. So he wont be in the UFC ever, IMO.
I'm no expert
I don’t know, you’re the expert. You get paid to do this stuff, I’m just an armchair wannabe. Let’s just all hope we see Fedor face off with Brock and be done with this. That way, I can stop searching for decent articles when I’m supposed to be working!
Lesnar vs Fedor
Lesnar has zero standup and will lose to either Cain or JDS. Until he gets past both of them, then we’ll talk. He ran like a girl and flinched like he was afraid of being hit. He will never have the mental toughness of Fedor and that will be his downfall. If Carwin didn’t gas and give him the same beating the 2nd round, Lesnar would be finished. I have watched everyone of Fedor’s fight and to compare Lesnar does not have the skill set to beat him. If Lesnar’s takedown attempt fails, he will lose. Thus Cain or JDS will beat Lesnar due to strikes.
He ran like a girl and flinched like he was afraid of being hit. He will never have the mental toughness of Fedor and that will be his downfall. If Carwin didn’t gas and give him the same beating the 2nd round, Lesnar would be finished. I have watched everyone of Fedor’s fight and to compare Lesnar does not have the skill set to beat him. If Lesnar’s takedown attempt fails, he will lose. Thus Cain or JDS will beat Lesnar due to strikes.
lol…wtf…was he supposed to just stand there and let dude tee off on him? See that’s were pride and stupidity cause a lot of people to lose. I don’t see how you can gauge the mental toughness of Lesnar and Fedor…you are better than I my friend…I suspect both guys have tremendous mental toughness. Lesnar does have the ability to beat Fedor….Fedor’s never fought anyone like Lesnar…please save the Mark Coleman comparisons….this is key though…
If Lesnar’s takedown attempt fails, he will lose.
Now…Cain could possibly stop Lesnar’s takedown…I’m not sure about JDS….but I highly doubt Fedor could. I mean…the same takedown attempt that took at 280lb Carwin clear across the cage would have more than likely put Fedor on his ass. I highly doubt Fedor would be able to do much from the half-guard position that Lesnar likes to work from as well considering the size difference coupled with his wrestling base and experience in training that Lesnar has gained since he started training.
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by Kelvin Hunt on Jul 6, 2010 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It doesn’t have anything to do with pride or stupidity. It’s about skill, and that skill translating into knowing how to react to getting punched in the face. It’s not common for top-level fighters to react the was Lesnar did, much less fighters in championship fights. Did Lesnar put on an amazing comeback and showed lots of heart? Absolutely. Does his reaction to getting punched in the face point to a huge problem for him in the future? I’d bet so. Remember, Lesnar won’t always get the fight to the ground. What happens if an opponent can fend off the initial shot and they end up against the fence with Brock trying to connect his hands to complete the takedown? I guarantee his opponent is going to start punching him in the face like BJ Penn did to Diego Sanchez. That is likely going to cause Brock to react and give up on the takedown in favor of an upper body clench where he can avoid the punches to the face.
I’m not saying this will be Brock’s downfall. It does, however, point to a pretty big hole in his game and to brush it off as a reasonable reaction is just silly.
nah
It doesn’t have anything to do with pride or stupidity. It’s about skill, and that skill translating into knowing how to react to getting punched in the face.
Dude..reacting to getting punched in the face and getting rocked or hurt…. are totally different in my opinion. When a fighter gets hurt the way Lesnar did….one must do whatever he can to allow himself enough time to recover…be it clinching…going for a takedown…or running across the cage. Anyone that stays in range after getting hurt the way Lesnar was is pretty dumb….and they would have lost that fight more than likely is all I’m saying.
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You’re missing the point. Fighters, unlike you and me, are trained to deal with getting punched in the face. This training typically consists of several years. Then, they gain experience utilizing these skills in amateur fights and, if they’re successful, in professional fights in lesser promotions. Lesnar, despite being a freak of nature and the current UFC HW champion, has only been training for a few years and that foundation-building experience is non-existent. This results in a major problem for him.
I’m not saying Lesnar isn’t a complete badass that deserves respect or that this past Saturday’s fight wasn’t awesome. What I am saying though is that people needs to take a step back and take a breath before they start mentioning his legacy in the same sentence as the hands-down, best fighter in the history of MMA’s legacy. I don’t doubt for a second someone will come along and surpass Fedor’s legacy. That’s how it works and it’s not a surprise. However, I don’t think everyone should be so quick to hang their hats on a gigantic dude with a handful of fights.
Also – How many times have you seen someone react the way Brock did in a UFC fight? Further, how many times have you seen that type of reaction in a title fight? I’m going to go with a pretty small number and I bet Fedor wasn’t one of them.
Also – How many times have you seen someone react the way Brock did in a UFC fight?
Better question, and ultimately destructive to your argument’s base: Who has ever gotten hit by Carwin and lived to tell about it? …?
Maybe standard fighter response to getting hit by Carwin is what gets people in trouble? Or maybe Lesnar simply accepted that if he got clipped he was better off regrouping elsewhere, since everyone else Shane has touched has lost with an average fight length of 1:07?
Lesnar’s “running like a little girl,” or whatever people like to call it, is EXACTLY what he needed to do in order to win the fight. That much should be completely obvious, since he did in fact win the fight, compared to the other twelve fighters to step in against Carwin.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
You definitely said it more succinctly ;)
Sometimes another, more verbose angle is helpful…sometimes it’s just annoying. You be the judge.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
and Lesnar’s never fought anyone as well rounded as Fedor. Fedor can KO Lesnar and Lesnar can take down Fedor. So whoever capitalizes first wins? One thing I know for certain is they both fought Heath Herring. Fedor fought a prime Heath Herring. Fedor destroyed Herring. Lesnar dominated Herring, but didn’t destroy Herring the way Fedor did.
You’re assuming alot, first Fedor doesn’t hit as hard as Carwin who Brock took many shots from and still wasn’t out also he’s a small HW against a monster like Lesnar he would probably end up looking like Mir did at UFC 100.
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cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
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by Nightwhistler on Jul 6, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Lesnar has already beaten the likes of Heath Herring…
That’s got to be the worst way to start out a list of dudes he beat to try and impress people. I’m sure that Lesnar will go on quite a tear, but whether he’ll go on the same kind of run as Fedor.. well, that’s hard to say, especially with his age and frequency of fights.
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agree
Neil, have to agree with you. A lot has changed over the years with MMA, champs come and go, but one thing has remained pretty much the same: Fedor. We’ve seen oversized, superhumans before in MMA but they eventually fall. Technique is the thing that matters, not brute force. It does help but someone will figure the guy out. Just a matter of time, and we’re not talking a decade.
You don know that Fedor lost right?, I swear what is it about the guy that makes everyday people zombies when it comes to talking about the guy.
"they mad at me, I keep going hard reppin/
cause what's your Rampage to Rashad Evans/"
-Joe Budden (Something To Ride To)
http://www.zshare.net/audio/76866807deabe3c1/
by Nightwhistler on Jul 6, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Well in all fairness, I don't think we've seen superhumans like Lesnar and Carwin in the past
And although I’m not poo-pooing on Fedor like a lot of other people, you make it out like he’s still an undefeated phenom.. and he’s not. I’d still put a lot of bank on him in a rematch against Werdum, but the loss wasn’t a fluke or something.
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I don't think Fedor's ever had quite the talent advantage that most of his fans have believed.
His fights with CroCop and Arona were extremely competitive affairs, and Arlovski was actually winning the standup war until his brain took early leave, likely to consider those famously attractive Ukrainian women back home.
That doesn’t mean Fedor wasn’t better than all of them, because he actually was. He also won all of the fights. But it’s not like he’s been on another, somehow unattainable level…Randleman nearly killed him, for God’s sake. And Randleman is not exactly a world-beater.
I love Fedor and what he’s done for the sport, but the talent gap between himself and the competition has narrowed, and I don’t think it was quite as large as his fans believed to begin with.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
Well
it’s not like he has beat 28 people….he’s got a whopping total of 6 fights to his credit…
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Oh yeah, for sure
I’m just saying that he’s got potential to do it. And I put about much stock in Fedor’s fights with the likes of Choi and Zulu as I do Lesnar’s fight with Herring: zero.
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I put exactly as much stock in Brock's fight with Herring as I do
Fedor’s fight with Herring. The Texas Crazy Horse hasn’t lost one tick between those fights, at least not as far as I can tell. The world simply passed him by, which is a possibility for any competitive athlete/person.
I would, however, lend the same credence to Brock’s fight with Min-Soo Kim(sp?) as I do Fedor’s fights with Choi and Zulu. Those fights taught us nothing about either winning fighter.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
Well since we’ve gotten those fights out of the way it only leaves us about 3 victories from Lesnar from which we can glean some insight, and about 28 victories from Fedor. I guess I see your point.
If your point is that a body of work consisting of 28 fights is greater than one with 4-5, I'll agree.
We’re not talking about that, though. And let’s be perfectly clear about this assertion, as well: Fedor’s 28 fights were NOT all against top-shelf competition. Does that diminish his accomplishment in any way? Of course not. Does it mean that his 28 wins are an apples-to-apples comparison to Brock’s 4-5 significant wins? Of course not.
The discussion about GOAT, or peer-to-peer comparisons always revolve around the central questions “Whose peak, defining performances were more impressive, and whose reign of dominance at the top was more impressive?” To me, that’s what we’re talking about.
Does Mike Tyson’s reign of terror impress you less than, oh, Sugar Ray Robinson simply because he had far fewer fights prior to his run at the top? To me, it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter how a fighter gets to the top, what matters is what he does once he’s there. That’s the crux of the discussion.
But sure, I’ll absolutely agree that Fedor’s career is more impressive than Brock’s at this point. To disagree would be foolish.
It would also be foolish to make ANY kind of an argument suggesting that Fedor’s first 12 fights are superior (or even equal) to Brock’s first 6. Fedor had exactly three highly talented opponents in that group: Ricardo Arona (damned close fight), Tsuyoshi Kohsaka (unfair DQ loss from the elbow) and Renato “Babalu” Sobral. But even these guys are significantly smaller than Fedor, as most are near the 205lb class.
I love Fedor, but he is a product of a different era. It’s not his fault, just like it’s not Babe Ruth’s fault that he was never tested against the best competition of today. You can’t really do much more than he did, when he did it. The world has evolved.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
Maybe I'm being starry-eyed
but all this talk of M-1 collapsing makes me wonder… could we yet see this matchup???
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I wish.
The problem is that Fedor’s already invested too much opportunity and effort into his promotion company. Most human beings aren’t capable of that quick an about-face on something so central to their lives.
Then again, most human beings couldn’t survive the Randleplex, let alone actually punish The Monster for successfully executing it.
If I was a hungry man with a gun in my hand and some promises to keep...
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