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Is the Prevalence of Dominant Wrestlers like King Mo Bad for MMA?

A very interesting thought came to me Saturday night, a thought that had been stewing for some time. As I drank my fourth gin and tonic, I had the unfortunate duty of slurring an explanation to my roommates about why King Mo was victorious over Gegard Mousasi. Granted, both of them are "casuals" in the most extreme sense of the term; two are only enamored with fencing and soccer and the other hasn’t been into sports since he quit the football team freshman year.

But, they oblige me when I watch MMA and are always down for me to show them a sick knockout highlight. Hell, one of the fencers has two Cro Cop montages in his YouTube favorites and the other fencer wants to go to the first UFC in New York with me. So they are aware of the sport and know the main card-type fighters, but never actively seek out MMA. That should give you an accurate estimate of what I’m dealing with here.

As I’m telling them about how big a factor this thing called "positional dominance" is on a judge’s scorecard, a drunken fencer says to me, "But it looks like Moo-sassy fucked up Mo way worse than vice versa." And that was indisputable. But, as GSP-Penn I, Sonnen-Marquardt, and any number of other fights can attest, aesthetic damage does not tell the whole story.

An argument ensued when we went out and got dumber and dumber as we kept drinking. The next morning, however, I started thinking about it in the malaise of a hangover and deduced the following:

That oaf had a point.

Star-divide

It’s a perspective I think a lot of people share, too. If Mousasi (discounting the deducted point for illegal upkick) had damaged King Mo more than vice versa, why should he lose simply because it was done from his back? Let me say, though, that I think Lawal deserved the decision even without a deducted point since he did more damage in the last three rounds. But let me deal hypothetically for a moment.

If Mousasi had an exact repeat of his 2nd round in the 3rd round, he should have been victorious in the fight (again, deducted point aside). I don’t think he would have been declared the winner, though. Why? Because perspective often has a wide chasm between itself and reality. The fact is, being on top of the other fighter grants itself to looking like you are winning; you are keeping him where you would have him therefore it’s impossible for your opponent to be winning.

Positional dominance has its merits, but to me the primary objective in a fight is to damage your opponent more than they damage you. Positional dominance is often the means to this end but rarely is the end itself. St. Pierre’s domination of Dan Hardy is criticized because we never witnessed said end, yet Hardy offered absolutely nothing to consider for him winning the fight. If Hardy had, say, unleashed some Kenny Florian-style elbows and some hammerfists like Mousasi, the fight would undoubtedly be viewed closer than the blowout it was. But this hypothetical Hardy would still be facing an uphill battle because of the credence given to top control and takedowns.

Takedowns, to me, are the equivalent of walks in baseball. They are positives and should go on the stat sheet but shouldn’t allow you to win if you can’t do anything with them (cough, cough—my Braves—cough, cough). That is, unless the guy you are taking down does absolutely nothing in the fight.

In a landscape where decisions like the Bas Rutten-Kevin Randleman fight seem almost mythically impossible, I worry how the "casuals", upon whom MMA’s development and growth crucially rely, will view the second Era of the Wrestler (following Mark Coleman, et. al). I’ve lately heard, "If you don’t want to be taken down, learn takedown defense." But a great kickboxer could drill TDD for two, maybe three years and would still be at the mercy of a GSP or King Mo. While I don’t accuse the aforementioned of doing so, what’s to stop world-class wrestlers from coming into MMA and laying on top of well-rounded, elite athletes who just don’t have the same wrestling and still taking victories?

Could this discredit the sport? I don’t think so, but it would certainly regress the action-packed reputation that has facilitated MMA’s growth. People might say wrestling can be dynamic and exciting, which I won’t dispute, but I would add that you certainly don’t see the NCAA Wrestling Championships doing gangbusters on PPV. GSP vs. Hardy could never have done for MMA what Griffin vs. Bonnar did, despite the exponentially higher skills on display in the former matchup.

Nary a striking-oriented fighter can be Anderson Silva, who keeps even the most accomplished wrestlers at bay with his lethal kickboxing. He is simply unnatural, and it was God—not training or genetics—that allowed that much fury into the human body. Thus, I think there has to be some sort of rule or a refined understanding that "positional dominance" is far from the most important aspect of a fight. This would eliminate any trend toward fighters who would commonly lay-and-pray; "riding time" doesn’t count in this sport. I also think the "ten-round must system" is detrimental to accurate judging of a fight; with as much as can happen in MMA, the boxing system just doesn’t translate well. If, in a title fight, Fighter A busts up Fighter B for two rounds and then, through sheer force of will, Fighter B keeps Fighter A on the ground for most of the last three rounds, Fighter B will likely win. I’ve been a strong advocate of the PRIDE system in which the fight is scored as a whole.

Thankfully, we have Fedor, Machida, Shogun, and Silva today. But all those guys in Nebraska at the NCAA’s a few weeks ago are well aware of this new sport that allows them to become wealthy and continue using the wrestling skills that, once upon a time, most would discard after college. There could be a time when Ultimate Wrestling is the order of the day. I doubt the sport will ever get there, but the window for this exists. An MMA landscape without victorious strikers will be irrelevant.

Wrestling is the strawberry daiquiri of MMA; it can fuck you up just the same, but there’s just something more exciting about a shot of Cuervo.

Poll
Thoughts on wrestling in MMA:
I want more, it's great.
16 votes
The mix right now is perfect.
42 votes
I'd pefer if there were a bit less.
41 votes
It should be banned.
8 votes

107 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 67 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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The sport has always had dominant wrestlers...

It’s up to the competitors to make the adjustment to them…that’s the beauty of our sport….if you eliminate wrestling…it’s not MMA anymore IMO…if some fly by night fan doesn’t like wrestling….then he can find something else to watch IMO.

http://www.mmaforreal.com
Follow Me On Twitter@MMA4Real

by Kelvin Hunt on Apr 20, 2010 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Excellent response, Kelvin. I agree. It may not always be exciting to watch but for that matter neither are kickboxing and jujitsu. Every fight is going to be exciting. Many different elements go into making an exciting fight. Whoever thinks that stand up = exciting and wrestling = boring by default are full of it.

by Rahson on Apr 20, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

More, More, More

These great wrestlers coming into MMA now don’t “lay” on opponent. They improve position and try to end the fight. Why? Because that’s how you get paid in this sport. You finish fights. Knockouts are exciting, but so are submissions. Rick Story’s Arm Triangle choke was crazy! I want to see more wrestling in MMA because like King Mo said the wrestling in MMA right now is not good.

"I have to carry out another fine moment before I die."
-Tatsuya Kawajiri-

by Erich Vowell on Apr 20, 2010 1:12 PM EDT reply actions  

Dude that picked Mousasi to crush Mo MAD in a shocker would sum up this post well.

You want to know what will stop world class wrestler from laying on people? Guys developing world class ground games. I know you’re mad Mousasi didn’t win, but the guys guard just wasn’t good enough and he didn’t even come close to submitting a guy with the grappling knowledge Mo has. Had Mo fought Roger Gracie and gone into his guard like he did with Gegard, he would’ve been submitted.

Are we seriously that upset that someone we picked didn’t win that we want to make concessions for the other fighters lapses in skill and talent? Get out of here with that garbage.

by Forrest Lynn on Apr 20, 2010 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Come on Forrest

Robert isn’t mad. It’s a good legit arguement. Do you want to see more wrestling in MMA. And by the pole #’s it looks like people are happy with the wrestling in MMA… Which is kind of sad

"I have to carry out another fine moment before I die."
-Tatsuya Kawajiri-

by Erich Vowell on Apr 20, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

But we've seen tons of "great" wrestlers come into MMA and fail. Just as many if not more than have succeeded.

You can’t just be good at one thing. You don’t last. The post paints guys as unskilled beyond the realm of wrestling which is laughable.

by Forrest Lynn on Apr 20, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m mad Mousasi didn’t win? Okay…

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Apr 20, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

uhhh . . . me too but I’m more dissappointed in his lack of takedown defense and the fact that he didn’t pull the trigger at all.

"There's nothing cool about taking punishment" - Floyd Mayweather Jr.

by VeeisAnimated on Apr 20, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, look at the newcomer Phil Davis, he ended his recent fight with the anaconda choke hold with seconds left. His 2nd UFC fight was completely different from his match against Brian Stann.

"There's nothing cool about taking punishment" - Floyd Mayweather Jr.

by VeeisAnimated on Apr 20, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ehh

wouldn’t say it was that different….Davis almost caught Stann in submissions…actually had it at the end of that match in an armbar I think it was….Davis is legit.

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by Kelvin Hunt on Apr 20, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

He showed improvement by actually pulling off the submission.

There’s a big difference in attempting to submit (GSP vs Hardy) and submitting (GSP vs Hughes III)

"There's nothing cool about taking punishment" - Floyd Mayweather Jr.

by VeeisAnimated on Apr 20, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

odds are

he would have subbed Stann had time not ran out…but I see what you are saying.

http://www.mmaforreal.com
Follow Me On Twitter@MMA4Real

by Kelvin Hunt on Apr 20, 2010 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

If they go the Koscheck route of evolving into a greater, all-around fighter, I’m all for that. I’m not knocking wrestling as a skill.

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Apr 20, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Within reason (and making some allowances for the entertainment aspect), MMA should tend toward simulating a real fight. Real fighting usually involves (and is often decided by) grappling. If guys can’t stop their opponent’s grappling offense, that’s on them. I, for one, enjoy watching fighters from a wrestling background compete (provided they stay relatively busy).

by Rich Wyatt on Apr 20, 2010 1:41 PM EDT reply actions  

lol @ it should be banned…I’d agree because then I may have a shot in MMA

by Charles Walker on Apr 20, 2010 1:42 PM EDT reply actions  

lol

yeah, i had to throw in the comical extreme. did you give it the one vote?

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Apr 20, 2010 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also:

Mo isn’t just a “good” wrestler, people.

He’s the best wrestler to ever seriously compete in MMA as a profession. EVER. You have to be an incredible athlete to be that good, and that athleticism combined with his amazing thirst for knowledge will shape him into a dominant force as his career progresses.

Would you rather see King Mo or someone like Forrest Griffin? Griffin is a good fighter, but the guy is just not a high level athlete. MMA needs more high level athletes to become a more legitimate sport. The talent level needs to increase. We need more Lawal’s, St-Pierre’s, Jon Jones and Phil Davis types. We need less Forrest Griffin’s and Chris Leben’s.

by Forrest Lynn on Apr 20, 2010 1:49 PM EDT reply actions  

Two words

Kevin Jackson

"I have to carry out another fine moment before I die."
-Tatsuya Kawajiri-

by Erich Vowell on Apr 20, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

It was his profession for a little while =)

"I have to carry out another fine moment before I die."
-Tatsuya Kawajiri-

by Erich Vowell on Apr 20, 2010 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

MMA was never what paid dude's bills.

He was a wrestler/wrestling coach and that’s what buttered his bread (and still does). Unless you do this for a living and do it on the regular, you were just a guy who fought some. Not someone I consider a real MMA fighter.

by Forrest Lynn on Apr 20, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nah man . . . I got to give Jackson his proper respect. It’s not like he stepped into one MMA competition and left. He competed at the highest level against very credible opponents.

I don’t think anyone should dismiss Jackson for only competing 6 times.

"There's nothing cool about taking punishment" - Floyd Mayweather Jr.

by VeeisAnimated on Apr 20, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’d rank Dan Cormier higher than King Mo

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Apr 20, 2010 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also, on Cormier

I think the kidney problems and his subsequent big weight gain have probably robbed him of some his natural ability.

by Forrest Lynn on Apr 20, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, for sure

"I have to carry out another fine moment before I die."
-Tatsuya Kawajiri-

by Erich Vowell on Apr 20, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’d still give him the nod in credentials. But yes, it’s to be seen what becomes of his MMA career

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Apr 20, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

MO's wrestling looked good against Mousasi and he may have great credentials

I think anyone that makes it at OK state is a great wrestler but as far as adapting that talent to MMA he is still real green

by doonerthesooner on Apr 20, 2010 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree that Muhammed is one of the top and most accomplished wrestlers to have competed in MMA. The very best wrestling credentials is perhaps stretching it, man. Joe Warren’s credentials compare favorably against about anyone’s. That’s just off the top of my head. There have been others. But your point is taken that Lawal is an incredible wrestler.

by Rich Wyatt on Apr 20, 2010 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Warren is close, but his dedication can really be questioned at this point.

Warren and Lawal competed at 2 of the toughest weightclasses out there, and both narrowly missed the Olympics for various reasons and were both heavy Beijing medal favorites.

Warren recently tried to compete again and basically got ran out of the joint.

by Forrest Lynn on Apr 20, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

With little dedication he became a world champipon (one of only 5 Americans to do so in Greco). I think Lawal’s best finish was 7th in the world championships. Now, I think Lawal is a better MMA fighter but he was slightly behind in wrestling. VERY slightly, though. Not trying to knock Lawal at all. Just pointing out Joe’s achivements.

by Rich Wyatt on Apr 20, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Eh..

I think the weight class Warren fights at makes some of his grappling deficiencies more apprent. You can get away with being a good wrestler and not get sub’d at the higher weight classes.

"I have to carry out another fine moment before I die."
-Tatsuya Kawajiri-

by Erich Vowell on Apr 20, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m referring only to their amateur wrestling credentials. That’s what I think he was claiming Mo to be superior at. I was just poining out ther have been guys as credentialed or more so than Lawal. Again, though, not trying to take anything away from Lawal. He’s a badass.

by Rich Wyatt on Apr 20, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also, Stephen Abas could possibly trump both. Don’t have any idea how it will translate to MMA. Just know his wrestling credentials are freakish.

by Rich Wyatt on Apr 20, 2010 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Do you think you can qualify that statement a little more? According to you, Mo is the best wrestler to (a) seriously compete in MMA; (b) as a profession. Then when people list wrestlers with better credentials who have transitioned to MMA you dismiss them all. Kevin Jackson’s credentials were better but that doesn’t count because he only had 6 fights, which shouldn’t be considered a real MMA fighter? Really? Mo’s 7th fight this weekend is what put him over the threshold into being considered a real MMA fighter? I have a feeling you would have called King Mo a real MMA fighter last week.

I get it: King Mo is your friend and you like him. A lot. I think your admiration for a friend is slightly clouding your judgment. Is King Mo going to be one of the best in the very near future? I think he will be. Is he “one of the best freestyle wrestlers America has ever produced”? (link) I’m not so sure about that.

I think Robert raises a valid question and gives it a thoughtful response. You don’t have to take it personally and dismiss his opinion as simply him being angry that the fighter he picked ended up losing. The fact is, casual fans hate watching wrestlers ride out position to decision victories. There are lots of hardcore fans that dislike it as well. In fact, I believe you’ve expressed some views on the poster-cilld of this phenomenon – Jon Fitch:

Only BJJ black belt who can’t pass the guard of a purple belt.

What does Fitch do with dominant position? Nothing.

Maybe he should do something about it. Like learning to pass guard or develop a punching arsenal. Screw Jon Fitch.

I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that you are not friends with Jon Fitch too. If you weren’t bff with Mo, I’d bet you would understand were all of these “Mo haters” were coming from when they say they thought Saturday’s fight sucked. Among the stats provided by FightMetric, this was one of the things that stood out: In a fight that Mo easily kept on the ground for almost 20 minutes, there were 2 positional improvements and 0 submission attempts. That’s crazy!

by Lucas2 on Apr 20, 2010 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's pretty well established that Forrest would love to see Fitch out

But Mo isn’t Fitch. You talk about him grinding on Mousasi for five rounds like it’s what he always does, but that’s only happened one time before this (Ryo Kawamura in Sengoku) when he had a blown out ACL (or PCL? bum knee, any way you cut it). Other than that KOs across the board, and all pretty fantastic (Kerr’s mouthpiece flying was something else) KOs at that.

The point is this is the only time that a fight of his has gone this way, and in all likelihood he’ll be dropping dudes in the future.

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by -Neil- on Apr 20, 2010 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree with you that King Mo has been wrecking some guys and I fully expect him to continue doing so. My point was that Forrest is trying to stifle discussion because he thinks he needs to come to the defense of his bff. In reality, he understands what RDS and others are talking about as long as they are not talking about his boy.

by Lucas2 on Apr 21, 2010 3:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think that's just it though

If five years from now Mo has fought fifteen times, and they’ve all gone to a decision, I don’t doubt that he’ll have a similar point of view on Mo that he does on Fitch. If Mo had been doing this the whole time I’m sure that Forrest wouldn’t be defending him.

What I see this as is a guy beat some dude who everyone really wanted to get behind, and now they’re looking for any reason that they can to talk down on him. “Look, look, he got tired, he was awful!” “Gosh, he just wrestled Mousasi for five rounds, he didn’t REALLY beat him!” Mental gymnastics to make people feel better about their boy getting clowned.

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by -Neil- on Apr 21, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I have a hard time imagining Forrest going from describing King Mo as “one of the best freestyle wrestlers America has ever produced” to giving him the Jon Fitch treatment. Which is fine by me. The point I was trying to make was that this whole “wrestlers are boring and bad for the sport” is a legitimate debate and one that bubbles up every few months. In fact, I’m pretty sure you guys had a Lights Out Radio show devoted to this debate a few weeks ago. And if my memory serves me correctly, I think Forrest took a stance similar to RDS above regarding GSP’s use of wrestling (I could be wrong about that though). There is no need for him to come rushing to Mo’s defense every time his name is mentioned and start throwing around ridiculous statements like “King Mo is the greatest wrestler to ever take MMA seriously and make it his profession and who’s name begins with the letter ‘m’.”

With regard to this debate simply being people playing mental gymnastics to defend their favorite fighter, I have a hard time believing that. Has anyone ever referred to Mousasi has their favorite fighter? I just don’t see how anyone could get so emotionally attached to a fighter with zero personality. And I also don’t see how anyone was that surprised about the fight’s outcome. I think Mousasi is an amazing fighter and expected him to win but I thought everyone was pretty much in agreement that if it went to the ground Mo would win and if it stayed standing Mousasi would win. Well, it went to the ground and Mo won. Is that shocking to anyone? I hope not.

As far as the substance of this discussion goes, I think you, Forrest, and myself are in agreement – wrestlers are not only good for the sport, wrestling is the best base an MMA fighter can have. The work ethic and heart wrestlers typically exhibit can’t be over valued. Wrestlers also have the ability to always revert to their base when in danger.

I also think we’re in agreement on King Mo – dude is a badass mofo. I mean, the guy comes out with a group of hot japanese women – what’s not to love? In addition to this, he is one of those rare fighters that has these little traits that provide a glimpse into his potential (and it is HUGE). For example, he studies fighting and the sport. This is rare and takes a different level of dedication. He has also shown that he can listen to his corner’s advice during fights and immediately implement their instructions. Not many people pay attention to this, but I think it’s a sign of a fighter being on a higher level than most. It shows a methodical approach to fighting and that the fighter is able to keep think during the fight. And did I mention the japanese girls?

Perhaps I’m wrong about all of this and RDS is actually devastated about Mousasi losing. I’ll admit the fact he lives with multiple “fencers” did raise more than a few red flags.

by Lucas2 on Apr 21, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, when Mo starts reeling off decision after decision with boring lay’n’pray, then we’ll see if Forrest changes his tune. If that’s what ends up going down then I doubt that many, if any people at all will defend it, and justifiably so.

Legit question: is a single fight really enough of a catalyst to stir up all this debate? I mean, nobody put up any posts about how much they hate Jon Fitch after any of his wins, but a legit prospect (if you can even call him that after beating Mousasi) gets a win in a five round title fight, and we’ve got this… I dunno man.

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by -Neil- on Apr 21, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it’s more of a result of the GSP 5-round wrestling clinic on Hardy + King Mo 5-round domination of Mousasi + Jake Shields 5-round whatever you call it. The GSP wrestling domination sort of sparked this debate a few weeks ago. You guys even devoted a show to “The Great Debate,” which was spun off of a “wreslting’s boring” debate from the post-UFC 111 show.

It’s also interesting how much controversy King Mo seems to stir up. Before this past Strikeforce, I had never heard anyone say anything negative about him. The only reason I even picked Mousasi to win was because he had so much more experience (and that he’s a really good fighter when he’s not throwing all of his punches off his back). I would have expected this much back-and-forth following the BJ Penn loss not so much this fight.

by Lucas2 on Apr 21, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, I don’t remember exactly what the debate topic was, but I wouldn’t put too much stock in that.. I think those were more talking points than anything else, since it seemed like Forrest and Zak agreed on a lot of things.

That’s exactly why I’m looking for a real reason why people are bagging on Mo so bad. People had great things to say, and even took a stance of “Yeah, he’ll be somebody some day, but he’s gonna lose to Mousasi.” I still think Mousasi is a good fighter, but his longevity will be determined by how much he wants it, or more specifically how much he wants to train. When the fight was first announced I thought it was too soon for Mo, but after thinking about it for a while I gave the edge to Mo, which is why I picked him. When I mentioned on the show that the only loser here can be Mousasi I didn’t mean that Mo was going to steamroll him, I meant that even if Mousasi were to win that Mo wouldn’t be hurt (in terms of his career), whereas there would be questions about Mousasi. I was actually going to make a prediction for Sherdog’s yearly contest and was going to say Mo would go undefeated and get the 205 title, but I instead went with all of the current UFC title holders going undefeated (since they bounce weight-classes, it’s a bit better than just remain champ)… you see how well that worked out.

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by -Neil- on Apr 21, 2010 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’d like to know your thoughts on James Toney, then.

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Apr 20, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

What about James? He's past his prime but he's still a better boxer than anyone in MMA.

If someone is dumb enough to stand with him (and in MMA, I’m sure someone is) they will most likely be knocked out if James finds his punching range.

But even so, whoever he fights, that guy will drill boxing harder than he ever has before just in case he’s put in the situation. That brings his standup level up. It’s a good thing.

by Forrest Lynn on Apr 20, 2010 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yo Forrest

You think Lawal will ever fight at 185…I know he’ll go where the money is…but realistically….has he spoke on it?

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by Kelvin Hunt on Apr 20, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol

naw fool…sprewellrimz is forrest from the lights out radio show here….

http://www.mmaforreal.com
Follow Me On Twitter@MMA4Real

by Kelvin Hunt on Apr 20, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

He told me he'd only fight at 185 for the UFC.

And if the money was right, of course. It’d take a lot for him to go down there. He was 225 when I talked to him before the show.

But I mean, you see my point on this, right? Someone being great a certain skill makes his opponent work that much harder in training to fight it. Or they could go the Mousasi route and you know, not work on it…but most guys that are serious about winning would do so. I think it makes everyone better.

by Forrest Lynn on Apr 20, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cool...I'd like to see him at MW
But I mean, you see my point on this, right? Someone being great a certain skill makes his opponent work that much harder in training to fight it. Or they could go the Mousasi route and you know, not work on it…but most guys that are serious about winning would do so. I think it makes everyone better.

Oh..I never disagreed here^….unless you were speaking to someone else…

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Follow Me On Twitter@MMA4Real

by Kelvin Hunt on Apr 20, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like how I got mad earlier.

I trolled myself.

Sorry to the homie Rob Downey.

by Forrest Lynn on Apr 20, 2010 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

chea...lol

http://www.mmaforreal.com
Follow Me On Twitter@MMA4Real

by Kelvin Hunt on Apr 20, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was wondering how I pissed you off. I’m not knocking Mo, I’m just saying as much as I don’t want shitty kickboxing, I don’t want wrestling matches.

I wouldn’t get hyped over a Joe Warren/Mike Brown match at all

We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.

by Anthony Pace on Apr 20, 2010 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

He may be better at boxing than an MMA fighter but boxing is just part of it

in an MMA fight everything changes defending takedowns and leg kicks and all that stuff incorporating all that in and I don’t believe a guy that’s never had an MMA fight is gonna be a better striker than a guy who’s proven himself.

by doonerthesooner on Apr 20, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Once range is closed, it's over.

Toney connects flush and every single fighter in MMA would probably be out.

But it would take the closing of range to do it. But Toney’s boxing is really honestly about 20 levels higher than anyone in MMA, perhaps even more so.

And Toney isn’t even anything near a world class boxer anymore. He’s just that much better still.

by Forrest Lynn on Apr 20, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not debating that but what I mean is he can have the best hands in the world but if Anderson gets him in the plum they ain’t gonna help him. And if we are talking about if someone was stupid enough to oblige him in fisticuffs I agree 100% he’d probably get the better. But as far as him working an MMA style of boxing that deals with takedowns and kicks I seriously doubt he is better than every other MMA fighter

by doonerthesooner on Apr 20, 2010 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now I have never been a big fan of boxing nor had the greatest understanding

of all the complex details of a fight, so I do not have an expert opinion or anything.

by doonerthesooner on Apr 20, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lyoto Machida has more decisions than (T)KO/Subs combined

But after the KOs of Evans & Silva, he’s a god among men. Once upon a time, BJJ was running rough-shot over MMA in a bad, bad way. The sport evolves, stuff that works sticks, and great wrestlers are here to stay. I’ve said if someone doesn’t want to get elbowed into oblivion, don’t go to a promotion that bans then, learn how to defend an F’ng elbow. If you don’t want to be taken down, then work on that sprawl. Jake O’Brien isn’t much more than a wrestler (if he’s anything more at all), but Arlovski made him look like an idiot when he sprawled like a fiend, then KO’d him.

Decrying the great wrestling of particular fighters is pretty weak, in my opinion. If it were a more shady organization, they’d ban takedowns, not unlike how K-1 has outlawed strikes in a clinch (please take note Semy and Allistair). People shouldn’t be complaining about these damn wrestlers and their “lay’n’pray”, people should be complaining that these fighters aren’t smart enough to train takedowns. If Mousasi could have stopped that takedown, he might’ve won, but that’s not the case. Can someone stop Mo’s takedown? Nobody has so far, but when it happens it’ll probably be bad news for him.

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by -Neil- on Apr 20, 2010 11:41 PM EDT reply actions  

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