On James Toney and the Overall Boxing vs. MMA Debate
As mixed martial arts gained prominence and popularity among general sports fans in the 2000s, the combat sport that had ruled the roost for a century--boxing--seemed to face it's waning days. Boxing had propped itself up on the heavyweight division in the late 1980s and 1990s, but with it's former stars either retiring (Lennox Lewis) or fading into irrelevancy (Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield), the "Sweet Science" was forced to make room for MMA in the consciousness of fight fans.
Inevitably, a debate emerged over which sport was truly supreme. Boxing has its long, rich history and a far greater acceptance among the general public. For decades, fathers have passed on boxing tradition to their sons and so on. Perhaps only baseball has roots as deep as boxing in American sports history. Boxing is a global sport, with entire nations rising in support of one of their sons. Certain fighters can truly capture the fans' imagination and transcend the sport, such as Oscar De La Hoya. But boxing depends on it's stars, and until the ascent of Manny Paquiao and Floyd Mayweather, De La Hoya was forced to carry boxing in the last decade with little help.
As boxing struggled, however, American MMA thrived. The UFC pushed its brand above its stars, making every montly pay-per-view event seem like a must-buy. It built cards top-to-bottom in a fashion similar to professional wrestling, and began breaking sales records long shared by the WWE and boxing. But MMA is still relatively new and has only been on cable television for the past few years. It saw its infant days mired in controversy, as political and public backlash decried the still unrefined sport as "human cockfighting." In Japan, the PRIDE FC promotion was immensely popular but after eight years of being an underground, niche attraction the UFC was on the verge of collapse. Then, in 2001, the Fertitta brothers and Dana White purchased the company. Under their Zuffa umbrella, they began streamlining the sport, earning regulation in new areas and creating stars in the process. The sport became more palatable to the public, and being a UFC champion began to carry weight in sports discussion. Last year saw one of the most successful PPV events of all-time with the landmark UFC 100, which received attention from every corner of the sports world.
Proponents of MMA chastise boxing for it's inability to provide compelling match-ups and screwing up fights the fans want to see. Some would suggest it's an incomplete combat sport, lacking the grappling and offensive capacity existant in legs that is essential in MMA. It's also valid to point out that boxing is filled with fighters lofted on their padded records against weak competition. Meanwhile, boxing supporters often decry mixed martial artists as incapable of being truly dynamic and technical with their boxing, so they go to a sport where they have a better chance of success. The "blood factor"--that is, all the blood that might be spilled in an MMA match--doesn't dispell any misconception that MMA fans are solely bloodthirsty, either. The fact is, both sports have image issues that each side likes to point out about the other.
In this new decade, though, boxing does seem poised for a comeback. Following successful pay-per-views separately featuring Paquiao and Mayweather, the entire sports world itches for a fight between the two pound-for-pound best boxers in the world. As anticipation for this match lingers, boxing fans will be treated to a Paquiao fight with Joshua Clottey next weekend and a long-time dream match-up when Pretty Boy Floyd faces Shane Mosley on May 1. The UFC is not slowing down, however, with a stretch of blockbuster cards planned throughout spring and summer. Add to that the attention Strikeforce has been getting and it's clear that MMA has attained a firm position in the sports psyche of America.
While the two combat sports jostle for position, a more subtle debate has developed among fans of the sport. What if a high-level boxer attempted to compete at the highest level of mixed martial arts? Who would be triumphant--the devoted practitioner with elite, technical punching prowess or the fighter with a diverse skillset in which perhaps no ability is greater than the boxer's but also in which more methods for victory exist. The two sports have cross-bred on small scales; former Elite XC champ KJ Noons took a sabbatical from MMA and boxed with mixed results (an 8-2 record) before signing on with Strikeforce last month. Former circuit boxer Marcus Davis has seen success as a mid-tier fighter in the UFC's welterweight division. And for years Anderson Silva has wanted a fight with the legendary but washed-up Roy Jones, Jr.
Only recently have there been developments that may actually led to a settling of the issue. Former welterweight and junior middleweight champion Ricardo Mayorga has signed on to fight the solid former UFC fighter Din Thomas. But the news that has resonated most deeply in fight circles is the UFC's signing of former great James Toney. Toney is a multiple-time champion in divisions spanning from middleweight to heavyweight and has a record of 72-6-3 over two decades of fighting at the highest level.
At 41 years of age and with a few loose pounds on him, Toney isn't in his physical prime anymore but still brings a boxing pedigree the likes of which have never been in the Octagon. Elite kickboxers such as Semmy Schilt and and Mirko "Cro Cop" Filipovic have had varying degrees of success in MMA (the latter more than the former), but a pure boxer of Toney's stature has never been on a stage like the UFC. Ray Mercer fights in regional shows against fat Tim Sylvias and Kimbo Slice wannabes (Kimbo actually submitted Mercer in 2007--wrap your head around that one).
The James Toney Experiment is the first true test of a boxer with elite, if aged, skills competing at the highest level of MMA, and the questions around his future are wildly burning. Toney will immediately posses the best boxing in the HW division, if not all of the UFC. But he's never had someone attack him with anything other than punches. Is Toney's pugilistic skill enough to counter the onslaught of leg kicks he may face from a Muay Thai master? Saying he's familiar with things like the "side check kick" doesn't exactly bode well. What happens when even the most-middling wrestler shoots for a double leg? Can this man who has always fought with arms up and his opponent in front of him ever learn to properly sprawl? The first time a jiu-jitsu purple belt lays on him "like a lil' fag", to use Toney's own words, might reveal to him the frightening drowning that is a rear naked choke, or the ridiculous pain that is an armbar.
Or, Toney can knock out haters left and right. He's certainly capable of punching a hole in anyone's face, and with five ounce gloves he might re-validate his nickname of "Lights Out". Even with a basic grasp of wrestling and submissions, Toney could do some damage if never contend for the title (which he won't, in all probability).
For the moment, the James Toney Experiment appears to be a way for Toney to make money and for Dana White to gain publicity and challenge the notion that boxers are superior to mixed martial artists, a notion that is still widely prevalent. It's also a way for the UFC to prevent the ratings bonanza that would ensue if Strikeforce put on Herschel Walker vs. James Toney. Toney will likely never even attain the unofficial ranking of "gatekeeper" in the UFC, but this experiment might just be first stepping-stone laid of a path that leads to elite, in-their-prime boxers fighting elite, in-their-prime mixed martial artists in the ring and in the Octagon. Until then, let the debate rage.
Steve Jennum vs. Melton Bowen at UFC 4
Boxer vs MMA Fighter - Brutal Beatings - Human CockFighting in a Cage (via MikeHawkins)
The FanPosts are solely the subjective opinions of MMA4Real readers and do not necessarily reflect those of MMA4Real editors or staff.
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Great article. The only thing I take issue with is “The James Toney Experiment is the first true test of an elite boxer competing at the highest level of MMA”. While Toney is considered to be a match up problem for many guys in the top 10 of boxing’s HWs, I really don’t view him as “elite”. Maybe 10 years ago, but this is not an elite boxer jumping ship and competing in MMA. This is more like the good boxer who comes out of retirement looking for a paycheck, only this time no one in boxing will give him that opportunity and the only way to cash in is by switching to MMA, where he can be reinvented as an elite boxer to come in challenge MMAs finest. Maybe I am too skeptical. What do you think?
Well,
You make a great point. I should have clarified that he was once a great boxer but isn’t top-10 anymore. Maybe he still is top-20-ish though, which I think would make him the best boxer in MMA, at least among heavyweights. He’s older and slower yes, but I still think he packs one hell of a punch and hasn’t lost his defensive skills.
There will come a time, though, when someone like an Andre Ward ups and decides to do MMA in his prime. Kickboxers do it all the time, but kickboxers have an easier transition to MMA than pure western boxers.
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
Great Article
Only thing I took issue was with was this sentence:
As boxing struggled, however, MMA thrived.
HBO boxing PPV did it’s biggest numbers in 2003 (around the peak of Pride) and in 2007 (About year after UFC 66). Boxing never left.
Fair enough
In the past three years though, boxing hasn’t done great numbers aside from 2-3 fights per year. Not say boxing “left”, per say, but that it isn’t this glamorous huge thing like it was in Tyson’s heyday. And that’s valid about Pride, I’m going to edit that to specify American MMA, which was what I meant.
Thanks for the feedback, it’s my first fanpost!
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
lol
Sorry I didn’t wanted to sound so harsh. It is a really good well though out article. I just get a little upset when fans say “boxing is dying” or something of that nature. Good read I liked it.
oh, you were fine
thanks for the feedback!
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
Fair enough
but you can say the same thing in Late 80’s and early 90’s when Tyson was coming up, or take away Evander Holyfield from his hayday.
The 80s were pretty solid the whole way through, IMO. Sugar Ray, The Hitman, Marvelous Marvin, Roberto Duran.
The 90s you got guys like Roy Jones, Jr. and Tito Trinidad. Now, don’t ask me how they pulled on PPV, I have no idea. But these guys were definitely stars…
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
First of all
Welcome to the site Robert….I’m familiar with the name from BE….secondly…nice fanpost….and yea..aside from saying Toney was still elite….it was on point like unicorns…keep’em coming…
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