p4p - what it means and why it's misused by MMA fans
by theworldsoldestsport on Mar 4, 2010 1:15 PM EST
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I hear far too much on mma news sites, by slobbering fanboys (*ahem GSP and Spyder Silva fans*) this term....I'm going to break down how you define P4P. This should make clear why it is vastly overused in MMA.
There's a lot of ways to lose in MMA. It's not a narrow sport by any means. The combination of skills necessary to win/remain dominant is long. It is also a sport, in terms of semi-unified rules which is still in it's infancy. The meteoric change in fighter quality is staggering to witness as most of us, unless you were living in Brazil awhile back where organized mma was taking place with guys training standup and on the ground/vale tudo/luta livre rivalry etc......most of us are new to our own sport, ala the "I started watching the early UFC's on VHS from Blockbuster" guy you meet at every mma event you attend.....anyhow:
P4P used to be synonymous with guys that had conquered weight classES. I emphasize the plural. Guys like Sugar Ray Robinson who won titles in 5 weight classes, Manny Pacquiao in 7 weight classes * one was catchweight at 145* - :guys that continually won belts and beat guys as they MOVED UP IN WEIGHT CLASS. Granted, this is more difficult in MMA given the wider disparity between the heavier classes, and the added combination of grappling which is more strength dependent in terms of carrying up your skill as you move up in weight classes. In boxing you can also argue the quality of different organizations matters as they're exist a lot of belts up for grabs, even moreso with modern boxing.
Guys like Urijah Faber and Sean Sherk are world beaters (former champions) in their given class....but as they go up one class they've lost.
Silva by the boxing standard you can make a case for being a p4p fighter. He's won fights at 185 and at 205. he has not won a belt in more than one weight class. BJ Penn fought Machida. He lost but he gave up a staggering amount of weight. BJ's won fights and a belt at 170 and 155. He's also been brutally beaten by GSP at that same 170 lb weight class. I'm sure BJ could make 145 and add that to his resume if he wanted to. That being said, give him the P4P mention. However, an mma fighter has yet to be dominant and win multiple fights in more than 2 different weight classes that I'm aware of, and certainly not aware of at the top of the sport against premier competition. GSP has won a belt at one weight class. He's lost and beaten some of the same guys within that weight class. A couple of his wins in his weightclass are guys clearly fighting up a weight class. Just like JMMarquez wasn't a huge win for Mayweather, GSP beating BJ, Sherk, and Serra aren't exactly the OMG! HE"S THE BEST EVER moments you can point to when proving he's a P4P great.
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Good stuff man
You did the fanpost right…but you forgot…
Silva by the boxing standard you can make a case for being a p4p fighter. He’s won fights at 185 and at 205. he has not won a belt in more than one weight class.
Granted it was a while back..but Anderson Silva was the 167lb champ with Shooto…
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Yeah, was just gonna say that. His fight with Carlos Newton in Pride was awesome, Andy looks like a teenage boy
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We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
Silva 167, 185 . . . 205
- Yes, I am an Anderson Silva fan. Note, he was the first person to beat “Mach” Sakurai
- Not to mention, if defeated a former LHW champion in Forrest Griffin. Of course, after the fight fans conveniently realized he was overrated although he did beat both Rampage* and Shogun* no matter how many asterisks you want to attach to those victories.
However, an mma fighter has yet to be dominant and win multiple fights in more than 2 different weight classes that I’m aware of
- Silva is by far the closes to the traditional definition of P4P
"There's nothing cool about taking punishment" - Floyd Mayweather Jr.
by VeeisAnimated on Mar 5, 2010 9:44 AM EST up reply actions
Nice topic. Yeah, the term P4P means different things to different people. I tend to think of it in terms of: “Which fighter dominates their division more than anyone else?” Whoever runs their block to the most impressive degree (with, admittedly, some real consideration to how deep that weight class is) is the guy that gets my vote.
I subscribe to a theoretical shrinking/enlarging ray approach. Who would wreck shit if they had the appropriate frame for it.
Imagine a skyscraper-sized GSP wrestling Godzilla – scary shit!
Talk to the hand... ask it about when it slapped your mother
This is what I've always thought
We're just a million little gods causin' rain storms, turning every good thing to rust.
Yeah, that's what it really is
Sure, fighting in different weight classes says a lot about you as a fighter, but it doesn’t mean you’re P4P. P4P is the idea that you’re a great fighter, that if you were to be at XXX weight you’d be great there too. I love the shrink ray analogy, but the name itself tells you what it means: pound for pound. Silva and Penn aren’t considered P4P greats because they’ve moved around weights, it’s because they’re fighters who compete with tremendous skill. GSP has only fought at 170 and is considered to be P4P great because again, the level of skill that he fights with is very very high.
I honestly don’t give much credence in regards to multiple boxing titles; when only 7lbs differentiate (or 3-4 at lower weights), and size doesn’t seem to mean as much, I almost expect them to compete in multiple classes.
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You’re dead on, man. I always hated the 15-20 weight classes in boxing. I hope MMA never expands to anywhere near that degree. I used to shake my head and laugh when I’d hear old boxing guys say something like “He’s thinking about making the difficult jump from 154 lbs. to 160 lbs.” I think MMA has it right and it is an enormous deal to try competing at a world class level in two different weight classes.
In other words, Pound for Pound rankings become necessary when there’s a great number of weight divisions and having individual rankings is too much. Hmm.
As far as P4P goes right now, it’s problematic for sure. Basically, once you leave the top 5 of any list, it gets foggy. That alone shows the problem. Once you get past Fedor, GSP, Anderson, Machida, and Penn….there’s a HUGE gap and then a sort of “wtf” feeling about the rest of the list.
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P4P rankings is not necessary, it’s just fun, something to discuss. I don’t know who coined the term but it was used to give props to the fight that conquered weight classes as theworldsoldestsport stated. Most MMA P4P rankings recognize that the ranking itself doesn’t mean anything, they’re more or less indicating which fighter is the best regardless of their division. There’s no real confusion.
In my humble opinion, GSP is definitely one of the top 7 fighters in MMA, period. Is he a P4P fighter? How? Did he have a career in 155lbs. or 185lbs.? Does he even want to or is it something fans and the media are pushing for. He has repeatedly talked about cementing his legacy in the 170lbs. division. And of course adding muscle, yada yada yada.
Simply put, did the fighter move up in weight? Did the fighter beat the best in that division? Did the fighter win the championship belt? Admittedly with boxing the differences in weight divisions can be less than 15lbs. compared to MMA multi-weight championships don’t look as great. With BJ Penn you have a guy winning the title at 155 AND 170lbs which is a huge difference. But I really doubt you will see guys like Mayweather Jr., Pacquiao, Mosley or Clottey fighting a guy like Paul Williams . . . too big, too tall.
"There's nothing cool about taking punishment" - Floyd Mayweather Jr.
by VeeisAnimated on Mar 5, 2010 9:58 AM EST up reply actions
damn Kelvin…been a LOOOONG time since someone out MMA’d me in terms of knowledge. wow. then i must say Anderson does get the bill for P4P far more than any other mma guy. wow. well, i stand corrected.
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by theworldsoldestsport on Mar 5, 2010 1:59 PM EST reply actions
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