So You Have To Finish Your Opponent To Be Considered A Dominant Fighter?
by Kelvin Hunt on Mar 19, 2010 12:00 PM EDT
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That seems to be the thought process of some MMA fans as of late in regards to Georges St. Pierre, as he prepares to defend his UFC welterweight title against Dan Hardy at UFC 111 next week. The knock on GSP seems to be that fans think he's scared to stand with his opponents since getting knocked out by unheralded Matt Serra at UFC 69. The claim is that all he does is takes his opponents down and doesn't try to finish them. So I took it upon myself to gather some stats and sprinkle a little common sense on the matter. Check it:
1. I don't believe that GSP is scared to stand with anyone. However, the common sense approach to fighting is to win by taking as less damage as possible right? It's also in a fighters best interest to use his or her strengths to attack his or her opponents weakness right? Just so happens that GSP is the best MMA wrestler in the world and he can take any welterweight down at will and dominant them. So if he can do that, then why on the world would he want to stand and trade strikes? He's taking the path of least resistance to win.
2. It's not like GSP has been fighting scrubs. This guy has fought the consensus #2 welterweight in the world in Jon Fitch and Thiago Alves...and he absolutely destroyed them. He didn't finish them, but the beating he put on them was more dominating than a 1st round TKO in my opinion. I mean those guys were a MESS after GSP mauled them on the ground for 5 rounds and they were the #2 welterweight in the world when he beat them. I mean usually when #1 plays #2 in any sport it's rarely a blowout right, so why do we expect so much from GSP? Why not give credit to Jon Fitch and Thiago Alves for being tough as hell and displaying why they were rated the #2 welterweight in the world(at the time GSP fought them).
Follow me after the jump for some stats.
Look at those stats. GSP had an successful takedown rate of 83% and landed Hi-Per Strikes 39% of the time. He landed 45 strikes while standing(31 to the body/head and 14 to the legs). Once on the ground, GSP passed Thiago Alves guard 13 times and attempted one submission. It's not like he gets a take down and just lays in his opponents guard to lay and pray and he landed 100 strikes on the ground. There he landed 56 strikes to the head and 44 strikes to the body. He actively tries to get into positions to finish the fight. Now look at what Thiago Alves did in the fight. He's very accomplished striker, yet was only able to land 12% of his Hi-Per strikes. So here GSP was facing a very good striker, so he took the path of least resistance and put him on his back to work him over. Look at the performance rating for both fighters. Incredible
Look at these stats. GSP has a successful takedown rate of 60% and landed Hi-Per strikes 54% of the time. He landed 62 strikes to the head/body while landing 15 strikes to the legs while standing. Once on the ground he acheived 4 guard passes and one submission attempt. So again, he's working to better his position once on the ground to try and inflict the massive amount of damage. GSP landed 74 head strikes and 34 body strikes once on the ground. Fitch is primarily a wrestler, so GSP spent more time on the feet where he had the advantage and punished Fitch, dropping him several times during the fight. You'll also notice that Fitch didn't achieve any take downs of his own while landing only 27% of his Hi-Per strikes. Look at the performance rating for both fighters.
He may not have finished Jon Fitch or Thiago Alves, but he absolutely dominated them. The pics don't lie.
HT: Stats courtesy of Fightmetric
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As a stat nerd, I’m loving this breakdown. Not only does St. Pierre impress when watching fights, you’re right, the numbers show just how well he performs against top competition. Also, when you consider his “strenth of schedule” his accomplishments are all the more impressive. Hardly any other division champion can claim such a schedule of opponents.
Kelvin
i aint trying to swang from them nuts, but, this is unquestionably an awesome and an essential read. i mean its so simply put and yet so damning. they say numbers dont lie well and this piece goes a long way to lending said statement creedence. Rahson above me summed up what is the innate foolish behind people who knock st. pierre
To put it bluntly, all of the fools who dog GSP for supposedly not being able to finish are simply haters who have to find something about him to bitch about. Nothing more.
"No, no- we've got to sacrifice the whole virgin thing. Instead we hand out rubbers that say 'We Salute George Michael' " ~ Gob Bluth
Michael Bluth: Could it be love?
Gob Bluth: I know what an erection feels like, Michael. No, it’s the opposite. It’s... it’s like my heart is getting hard.
Love them stats!
These are the questions I always ask when people dogg him:
I don’t believe that GSP is scared to stand with anyone. However, the common sense approach to fighting is to win by taking as less damage as possible right? It’s also in a fighters best interest to use his or her strengths to attack his or her opponents weakness right?
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haters are everywhere
GSP is the man, he dropped fitch and alves with strikes! Everyone likes to bring up the fact the Serra got lucky and caught him behind the ear with a strike! Everyone can get lucky! Don’t forget about the dominating performance he laid on Serra in their rematch! Every fighter in the world should strive to be as great as GSP! This guy is a gentleman and an amazing MMA Athlete.
Well Said
Fitch is currently saying that if he stops Alves again then he will do twice what GSP could not do . . . and that is stop Thiago Alves.
LOL! Fitch would be better off trying to insinuate GSP using steroid, HGH or that he bathes in vaseline the night before the fight.
Manny Pacquiao didn’t finish Joshua Clottey but he definitely Dominated him.
"There's nothing cool about taking punishment" - Floyd Mayweather Jr.
I'll be the a-hole that disagrees with all of this.
You can put all the stats you want up there but they are still just numbers. Most of the people on here are impressed by those I would guess but I’m not. WHY?? Because as Joe Rogan would say, I am not an educated fan. What blows my mind about Joe Rogan every damn time he says that in his arogant asshole way is that of all people he, as the former host of “Fear Factor”, should know is that 75% of the fans are uneducated fans that want to see fights finished. People want something exciting. You may hate this and discredit this but five round fights that go to descions don’t make the highlights on Sportscenter and that is where become known. I’m guessing Dana White wouldn’t admit that eaither but he knows the truth because he is a business man and getting your sport on Sportscenter is how you make money. Holding people down on the ground for the whole fight get’s you the win but finishing a guy in the first round gets you on Sportscenter and makes your career. Brock Lesner is the UFC’s hightest draw not because he lays on a guy for five rounds but because he knocks a guy out or pounds him into submission and that is what the average fan wants to see. Think about the dominate athelets in the four major sports and why you know them so well. Jordan, Kobe, Lebron, Ovechiken, Crosby, Gretzky, Yzerman, Lemieux, Bonds, McGwire, Sanders, T.O., Rice, Irvin, MIKE TYSON. There are highlight reels of them all finishing. It’s why boxing keeps on the decline and MMA keeps rising. You have a different market audience now that is not raised on watching the Cheers and M.A.S.H. and playing Pac-man but watches South Park, 300, Saw, and plays Halo, Left for Dead, and Grand Theft Auto. They want to see someone knocked out and finished. It may not be “right” but it is 100% correct and Dana White and Scott Coker know it.
by Dr_Cox19 on Mar 19, 2010 4:18 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Dawg..you can't be serious
You can put all the stats you want up there but they are still just numbers
Well..I guess if a NFL team gets blown out 55-3…or a MLB team loses 12-2…soccer team loses 5-1 in the world cup….it’s just numbers?…pfft…
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I don’t share your opinion but your statement that the bulk of fans like the finishes more than a 5 round virtuoso performance is 100% correct. Of course, keep in mind that most mainstream folks would rather watch Butterbean fight a team of midgets than watch Mousasi vs. Lawal so, even though it is a fact that such things are more popular, I can’t get down with that.
to my mind
thats like saying every basketball fan turns up to see the harlem globetrotters which i humbly imagine is not the case… i mean roughly speaking (whilst still pretty accurate), GSP has stopped his opponents 62% of the time which by chance is comparable to Floyd Jr! not bad company considering both guys by most reasonable peoples standards are the best in their area….
haha some might argue these “fans” are getting more bang (excuse the poor pun) for their buck by seeing someone being battered from pillar to post for 25 minutes instead of 2minutes.
"No, no- we've got to sacrifice the whole virgin thing. Instead we hand out rubbers that say 'We Salute George Michael' " ~ Gob Bluth
Michael Bluth: Could it be love?
Gob Bluth: I know what an erection feels like, Michael. No, it’s the opposite. It’s... it’s like my heart is getting hard.
by RearNakedPoke on Mar 19, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Also
GSP has stopped his opponents 62% of the time
As Rich mentioned…the competition he has fought in his career is retarded….compared to most fighters…
http://www.mmaforreal.com
Follow Me On Twitter@MMA4Real
chalk it Kelv
he has manhandled a who’s who of the WW division and avenged all his losses where relevant in just sheer incredible fashion. he’s an mma treasure, is there anyone on the planet who dedicates thereself to their respective sport more then this man? honestly?!
i mean the sport might not be mainstream but this guy is one hell of an ambassador for it with his approach, skillset, demanour, focus and crucially determination to evolve constantly and eradicate his shortcomings. his ability to close up the holes in his game from performance to performance is just sick.
its just a real pity that some folk cant see him for what he really and what he brings to mma,,, alas, at least there are a core few who do. that counts for something :)
because
"No, no- we've got to sacrifice the whole virgin thing. Instead we hand out rubbers that say 'We Salute George Michael' " ~ Gob Bluth
Michael Bluth: Could it be love?
Gob Bluth: I know what an erection feels like, Michael. No, it’s the opposite. It’s... it’s like my heart is getting hard.
by RearNakedPoke on Mar 19, 2010 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions
lol
indeed… :)
"No, no- we've got to sacrifice the whole virgin thing. Instead we hand out rubbers that say 'We Salute George Michael' " ~ Gob Bluth
Michael Bluth: Could it be love?
Gob Bluth: I know what an erection feels like, Michael. No, it’s the opposite. It’s... it’s like my heart is getting hard.
by RearNakedPoke on Mar 19, 2010 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions
exactly!!! Come on Dr_Cox19, it’s MMA, you can win by decision, ko, tko, submission! If you just want to see fights finished catch the Ultimate Knockouts DVD as bestbuy! A real mma fan understands the game and appreciates every aspect of the battle! Everyone likes to see a KO but dude when you get controlled like a helpless child for five rounds thats greatness!
You are missing the point. You are a “real” MMA fan but to be a successful mainstream sport, like Dana White has said he want’s the UFC to become, you need average fans. Average fans don’t want to see five round descions, they want knock outs. You think I am a hater? Then so is White and the Zuffa family because they don’t want drawn out fights, they want KOs and submissions. You need to stop thinking like an expert for ESPN and start thinking like a businessman. Dominat fighters are fighters like Fedor, Brock Lesner, Anderson Siliva, Rampage, Liddel. They finish fights. They win without any questions asked. No judge. Judgeing screws up everything. We can all remember times when judges messed up things. Am I the only one that watched Machida vs. Shogun? That fight and result didn’t win over anybody. Why does Keith Jardine have a career? Because he finishes fights. He get’s knocked out or knocks out people. The people that drive me nuts are the people that want the UFC and MMA to get more coverage but only want it on if it holds true to “the sport”. If you want fans, then you better know what they want and be willing to give it to them. The way that some of you talk, I am 100% conviced that if you ran the UFC, it would be out of business in less then a year if you can not stop thinking like an expert and start thinking like a fan.
without trying to pile on....
not everyone wants to sell out on what makes the sport great to make it mainstream
Then so is White and the Zuffa family because they don’t want drawn out fights, they want KOs and submissions.
this is purely for business reasons that they champion and reward such results (note they also reward FOTN’s which can equally be decisions, but i digress) and contrary to your implication it does not ncessarily mean Dana is a hater. it means he sold out on his values to run a viable business, thats called being business savvy not a hater…
Dominat fighters are fighters like Fedor, Brock Lesner, Anderson Siliva, Rampage, Liddel. They finish fights.
dude, i mean thats just by default. in any code of sport a dominant team/individual is one that puts its competitiors to the sword. isn’t that what makes them dominant? they’re hardly classified as dominant if they’re squaking out unanimous’ or splits….
Keith Jardine
He get’s knocked out
ya and the last one probably cost him that very job…lol
If you want fans, then you better know what they want and be willing to give it to them.
No.
the sport was here before the “mainstream fans” and is self sufficient without them, the sport wont be the sport if we sell out to just make it mainstream and more profitable then it already is. i was never interested in lining Dana’s pockets. i watched the sport to see competition and fighting styles clash in the octagon. a business has to be profitable to exist, thats a given and as such compromises have to be met like having bonuses to reward certain endeavours, but, i wont be validating selling mma’s soul for 32 pieces of silver. count me out.
"No, no- we've got to sacrifice the whole virgin thing. Instead we hand out rubbers that say 'We Salute George Michael' " ~ Gob Bluth
Michael Bluth: Could it be love?
Gob Bluth: I know what an erection feels like, Michael. No, it’s the opposite. It’s... it’s like my heart is getting hard.
by RearNakedPoke on Mar 20, 2010 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions
ehhh
I’m not missing the point…the point is that GSP is one of the largest PPV draws the UFC has….dude is transcending boundaries that no other fighter has been able to do…so obviously people like watching him fight…event though he isn’t knocking people out or submitting them….when you dominant your opponents the way he does…people notice that…
Futhermore, if all people wanted to see was KO’s and submissions…why isn’t Anderson Silva a huge superstar? Why isn’t Jardine a superstar? Why isn’t Fedor? Ok, I know why Fedor isn’t..but still….
http://www.mmaforreal.com
Follow Me On Twitter@MMA4Real
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, if GSP was as boring as a lot of you claim he is and the mainstream fans don’t care to watch him fight, then explain to me why the crowd cheers EVERY TIME he takes somebody down? Why would Gatorade and Under Armour, as well as another soon-to-be-named sponsor, want to get behind a guy that’s “boring” when he fights?
Just because St. Pierre doesn’t look like Clay Guida when he fights does not make him boring.
christ
gsp’s a fighter that’s there for the dedicated fans. he demonstrates the skill and prowess that got us into the sport initially, and watching a 25 min class in “how to be a perfect mixed martial artist” is something that we really enjoy. now, your brocks, silvas, rampages etc are all good technical fighters, but they are there for the ordinary fans. they get the early (t)ko’s and submissions and the ordinary fans get the thrill of it. why can’t they co-exist without haters? that way, the dedicated fans get what they want, and the ordinary fans get what they want too. if ordinary fans don’t like watching 25 mins of pure technical domination, then they shouldn’t watch the cards that feature fighters that do it. the sport got by fine on the back of the dedicated fans, the ordinary ones are just a bonus :)
by Nicolle Sarah Lynas on Mar 20, 2010 11:48 AM EDT reply actions
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