Greg Jackson = Boring
by cauliflower_ears on Jan 9, 2010 2:03 AM EST
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There I said it. Greg Jackson may be a really smart coach but his gameplans are boring and one dimensional.
GSP used to be this super-entertaining fighter who now pretty much only uses his wrestling and ground and pound. Each of his last 4 fights have either been decisions or ground and pound stoppages. For a guy with so much more to offer, its a shame that he's become a more athletic version of Matt Hughes.
Next up, Rashad Evans. While GSP inflicts a lot of damage with his gnp, Rashad did virtually no harm to Thiago Silva on the ground. This isn't the Olympics! Takedowns without damage should not be scored so highly by the judges. In that case, why aren't jiujitsu guys given points for pulling guard? And Thiago was the one who came closest to finishing the fight. Rashad on the other hand was NEVER close to submitting or TKO'ing Thiago.
Greg Jackson's gameplan of takedown-rinse-repeat is bad for MMA. Any decent wrestler can get his opponent to the ground and hold him there for a while. But if you aren't doing anything with our dominant position, does it really translate into Octagon Control?
Greg Jackson's fighters come off with undeserved wins time and again purely because he has come up with a pretty safe and fool-proof way of avoiding defeat rather than going for the kill. Fighting not to lose is not what MMA is about. Fighting to win and finish your opponent is what the fans and sport deserve.
Keep in mind, I'm a big fan of Rashad and GSP but I'm sorry they are at a camp that has turned them into boring machines.
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unfortunately for the fans, with fighters the end justifys the means. i commend GSP for using an effective gameplan and implementing it supremely, however as a spectator it isn’t always highlight reel action… i guess the onus is on opposing fighters to counter act it! i will say this, Marquardt is a Jacksoner but you could not label him boring. his performances against Gouveia and Maia of recent memory were fucking sweet!!!!!!
Rashad did virtually no harm to Thiago Silva on the ground. This isn’t the Olympics! Takedowns without damage should not be scored so highly by the judges. In that case, why aren’t jiujitsu guys given points for pulling guard? And Thiago was the one who came closest to finishing the fight. Rashad on the other hand was NEVER close to submitting or TKO’ing Thiago.
says it all…
"I had to fight all my life to survive. They were all against me... but I beat the bastards and left them in the ditch." ~ Ty Cobb
See I have to respectfully disagree
In GSP’s case…he’s fighting the very best his division has to offer in the world…and he’s dominating them….I don’t think fighters should be penalized just because they don’t finish their opponents…especially when they are doing tons of damage to them…ala Alves/Fitch…why stand and bang with Alves when he could take him down and punish him?
In Rashad’s case….the Silva fight was his first decision win in quite a while…and while the fight went to decision..I hardly found it boring….I think credit has to be given to Silva for being able to get up from the take downs so quickly….I mean it’s not like Rashad was just laying on him…when he did take keep him down earlier in the fight…he acheived the mount position and almost took Silva’s back….so he was looking for ways to end the fight….
I think there’s a thin line between fighting smart and fighting to please the fans….when you get to elite status like GSP and Evans…losses can be career altering….so you have to think about that as well….
Nice job on the fanpost though!
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Mixed feelings
Kinda agree the rinse and repeat take town game can be kinda boring to see at times. But recent examples of this I would give a lot of credit to the person getting back up. Alves in his loss to GSP, Silva in his loss Evans. These guys showed incredible grit and determination to be able to get up or out of ground positions repeatedly. Sometimes fights just don’t end up the way we wish they would.
Sure I think Evans could have done more to hold Silva down do some damage , and I wish the fight was more exciting. But I wouldn’t blame his coach’s game plan. Id blame Evans , and give credit to Silva and his team for getting back up using great technique each and every time.
After the Evans Silva Fight There was some renew discussion on web forums about changing judging criteria again. Seems to happen a lot when big fights go to the scorecards. One Idea I liked was incorporating Transitions into the judging criteria . So for example in the Evans vs Silva. Evans would score points for the takedown Silva would score points for getting back up . And basically nothing would have been scored for Ground work . Since I believe Fight Metric had Silva landing 3 groundstrikes during the course of 8 or 9 takedowns.
I like the idea quite a bit , I could drastically effect the outcome of many close fights in a way that I think would be agreeable to most . I dunno it just kinda seems like a fair way to incorporate more effective and even scoring.
OHH HI !!!
Been a member of sb*nation for a while now. Just don’t get around to posting often =)
Huge fan of mma and catch quite a bit of my news through the sb*nation sites , really enjoy reading fanposts too. Opinions go good with morning coffee!! Its how I start my day.
rashad landed 7 takedowns, 4 of wich were slams. being able to lift another fighter completely off his feet, leaving him basically helpless, has to count for points. it’s on the other fighter to have better takedown defense. he also attained mount as well and used good footwork and strikes to set up those takedowns.. i didn’t feel that the fight was boring either and had no doubt who won, or that it was even close to being a draw. if people like/want ultimate kickboxing, that’s fine, that’s there perrogitive.
Jackson’s camp: also includes jon jones, donald cerrone and leonard garcia, whom are anything from being boring lay-n-pray fighters. i dont put gsp, rashad or jardine into this category either. :)
its a fine line tho between rewarding technique and rewarding damage, those takedowns did no damage and neither did he do any from full mount, or when he had his back. in an alternate view to yours it could equally be said that silva had good enuf defence to escape from being mounted and regain his standing position coupled with Rashads inability to make use of the superior position he found himself in. id nearly, if not, take a negative approach to scoring a fighter who cant make use of a superior position/advantage…it doesnt show much ability, just like finding yourself in that position…it kind of balances out. its not kickboxing, yes. its not a wrestling match either. you have to hit him. out of what was actually 8 takedowns, he landed 3 ground strikes…thats piss poor, at best.
"I had to fight all my life to survive. They were all against me... but I beat the bastards and left them in the ditch." ~ Ty Cobb
by RearNakedPoke on Jan 10, 2010 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
8 takedowns 2 slams acording to the report...
But I am sure that’s subjective.
Bdw I agree that the takedow’s have to count for points.
But I also believe that escapes should also count for points. Maybe not as much as the takedowns, But I believe they should count for something . Especially in situations like the Evans vs Silva fight where literally no damage was done on the ground.
..Not saying the outcome would be different and really don’t care tbh just using it as a recent example.
I enjoy mma that’s all of mma , grapling contests inc. I’m just saying give the defensive grapling,the escapes, the jujitsu ect… some credit
Lol thinking of escapes reminds me of Miller giving up his back to Sheilds and doing that diving summersault repeatedly. He really never was able to escape Sheilds grasp but he sure did try.
looks likes it’s kinda split down the line as far as scoring takedowns are concerned amongst the fans. i don’t think takedowns are the be all, end all in scoring, but when the fighter getting taken down isn’t doing anything else but escaping g-n-p, and not landing punches when the fight is standing, takedowns are all there is left. hell i think fights have been decided by a single takedown at the end of the fight (i’m thinking tito/forrest-1). if a fighter doesn’t want to lose from takedowns or g-n-p (sometimes lay-n-pray) he should work harder on his takedown defense or develop better submissions.
Evan's BJJ vs. Thiago Silva's BJJ
I really don’t see why many fans are criticizing Rashad Evans for his inability to damage Thiago Silva on the ground. Thiago Silva has years of experience in jiu-jitsu compared to Rashad Evans. Machida was able to land some strikes on the ground but didn’t exact serious damage against Silva. The fight ending KO punch was a crazy buzzer-beater that only special fighters Machida can pull off.
Yeah, takedown + holding down opponents are viewed as Octagon control.
Over all, I hear your riff with Greg Jackson but I kind of enjoy the technical expertise that Evans displayed over Thiago Silva and GSP over Serra, Fitch, Penn and Alves. Get ready for almost the same with GSP vs. Hardy because Dan is well aware that he may be taken easily taken down.
Happy Holidays and A Happy New Year
Undeserved wins?
Come on man, we’re all entitled to our opinions, but to call GSP and Rashad’s past wins “undeserved” is a pretty big stretch. They looked at the rules of the sport, they saw “This qualifies as a win,” and they executed that plan. Nothing undeserved about that; entertaining you isn’t a catagory on the judges score cards.
not GSP but Rashad was one hit away from being KO’d. Was Silva ever in danger? Even remotely?
This fight was a draw at best. Not a UD win for Rashad.
10-9 Rashad
10-9 Rashad
10-8 Silva
I guess I went overboard with the “undeserved wins” part but my biggest problem with winning this way is that Greg Jackson’s guys (some of them) fight in a way that makes it impossible for the judges to do anything but award them a win even if the opponent did better overall. Its like a soccer match where a team scores 1 goal at the start of the match and then defends with 10 men for the rest of the game without attacking at all. This could get very ugly in the long run. Wrestlers need to do more than grind out wins based purely on points.
For me, takedowns don’t mean a thing to be honest if you can’t do anything with it. A boxer or muai thai guy would like to keep a fight standing since thats his forte. Thats where he feels most comfortable – on his feet. If he keeps the fight standing and does nothing and runs around, that doesn’t count for much does it? Similarly if a wrestler feels comfortable on the ground and decides to take his opponent down, he must do something once he’s attained the position he wants.
Taking someones back, achieving a full mount etc is overrated if you can’t inflict damage from these advantageous positions. If your opponent on the other hand, gets out of these vulnerable spots, one of two things should happen a) either he should get points for getting out or b) you shouldn’t get points for the takedown since you couldn’t keep him there or do any damage.
I think its unfair for every other style of martial art when a one dimensional wrestler walks away with a “win” (not that i think GSP or Rashad are one dimensional) after doing nothing but taking his opponent down a few times. Even if he gets his a few times, a stupid takedown counts for more… Its ridiculous.
by cauliflower_ears on Jan 11, 2010 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
The thing is Thiago Silva did not do better overall AND he knows it. He knows he was soundly beat.
Here’s a problem . . . ALL STRIKERS at this point realize that wrestlers will get a nod if they are taking down their opponents and controlling their positions. Randy Couture controlled Vera by hugging him against the cage. That’s why most fighters think the best way to beat Anderson Silva is to take him to the ground, because they want to hold and control him from moving. See Dan Henderson vs. Silva 1st round. Many people accept and know that Henderson won the first round. He didn’t inflict any damage but he was ruled as owning a round against the champion.
All the fighters are aware of that well before they step into the Octagon.
Happy Holidays and A Happy New Year
by VeeisAnimated on Jan 11, 2010 6:49 PM EST up reply actions
well yeah…. but just because the fighters KNOW that wrestlers usually win if they score a few takedowns and don’t get knocked out doesn’t make that style of fighting correct.
Randy clearly lost the fight to Vera imo but somehow got the nod.
I’m also not completely against all forms of grappling. For example I thought Dong Hyun Kim clearly won the fight against Matt Brown.
The rules and scoring need a complete overhaul. We also need judges who are trained to score mma bouts correctly… I’m just afraid that MMA is going to turn into wrestling, ground and pound with a side order of sloppy standup.
by cauliflower_ears on Jan 12, 2010 1:32 AM EST up reply actions
MMA is not going to turn into wrestling. Don’t worry about that.
Effective strikers, power, quick hands with great takedown defense will be stopping grapplers, wrestlers, etc. We’ve seen what happened when horrible striking wrestlers/grapplers (Sherk, Stevenson and Sanchez) mix it up with some one who knows how to throw a jab and combinations.
Yes, the rules and scoring needs an overhaul but first things first . . . getting MMA sanctioned throughout the states. Well that’s the goal of many MMA advocates with the power to influence change
Happy Holidays and A Happy New Year
by VeeisAnimated on Jan 12, 2010 6:49 AM EST up reply actions
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