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Inside The Numbers: Comparing B.J. Penn To His Peers

UFC lightweight wold champion B.J. "The Prodigy" Penn (14-5-1)

UFC lightweight wold champion B.J. "The Prodigy" Penn (14-5-1)

 

With a defense of the lightweight championship of the world on the horizon, I thought it was a perfect time to get your opinion on something. If one looks at the top ranked fighters in all seven major weight classes, it's hard to argue against this being the most talented crop of champions in the sport's young history. Because of this, there's plenty of room for discussion as to who does the best job of "running their block". So here's what I want everyone to weigh in on: Is there a fighter in any weight class that runs their block better than B.J. Penn? Now keep in mind that for the purposes of this conversation, you can only consider the body of work that a fighter has put in while competing in their natural weight class (example: you can't consider what Anderson "The Spider" Silva has done at 205 pounds for the purposes of this exercise). Also, it's worth noting that you could easily make an argument to have St. Pierre, Silva, Emelianenko and Machida ranked above Penn in the mythical pound-for-pound rankings right now, largely because of GSP's decisive win head-to-head against B.J. in their superfight earlier this year. However, it can be a thought provoking thing to look at what each fighter has achieved exclusively in their natural weight class.

It's this type of examination that I think helps put Penn's career in perspective. The lightweight version of B.J. Penn has been the sport's standard bearer in that weight class for a long time now. Penn has suffered losses because he dared to fight the likes of enormous 170 pound champion George St. Pierre(a split decision loss and a TKO corner stoppage after the 4th round), 170 pound champion Matt Hughes (whom he split with in Matt's prime) and current light heavyweight champion Lyoto Machida (decision loss).  But he's almost flawless at 155 pounds. I wouldn't necessarily argue that Penn is above any of the fighters that I'm about to mention. But I think that an objective look at the stats at least makes a decent argument that his accomplishments fair very well compared to theirs. Again, all this is just meant to get the conversation going heading into Penn's world title defense in early December, but here's why his body of work in his own weight class could be considered at the very least comparable to that of his peers:

Star-divide

B.J. "The Prodigy" Penn (30-years-old)- I have Penn listed as being 12-1-1 (5 TKO's, 5 Submissions) at lightweight. "The Prodigy has pretty much run the show at lightweight. This sport is still young but you'd be hard pressed to make an argument for a better 155 pounder having competed yet. Penn hasn't lost at lightweight since a decision loss to the then world-champion almost 8 years ago. The combined career winning % of the opponents that he has faced is approximately 72%. (Bonus stats: Impressively, Penn only ever had 1 fight at lightweight against a fighter with a losing record. None of his last 10 opponents at lightweight had a losing record.)

Georges "Rush" St. Pierre (28-years-old)- I show GSP as being 19-2 (8 TKO's, 4 Submissions) at welterweight. GSP has become, arguably, MMA's biggest star not named Brock Lesnar. St. Pierre is an enormous 170 pounder that combines unbelievable skill with incredible athleticism. St. Pierre has fought his entire career in one weight class and has avenged both losses (1st round losses earlier in his career to Matt Hughes and Matt Serra). Obviously, GSP has the two head-to-head wins against Penn. But one must measure GSP's accomplishments at 170 against Penn's at 155.  St. Pierre hasn't lost at welterweight since a 1st round TKO loss over 2-and-a-half years ago. The combined career winning percentage of the opponents that he has faced is approximately 76%. (Bonus stats: Incredibly, St. Pierre has NEVER had one fight at welterweight against a fighter with a losing record! This is unprecedented.)

Anderson "The Spider" Silva (34-years-old)- I'm unsure how many of Silva's fights were at 185 pounds (it's been difficult finding this information). I know that most of his fights have been at middleweight so I'll take a stab at it and say that he's approximately 17-3 (11 TKO's, 2 Submissions) at 185 pounds (I realize that may not be completely accurate). Silva hasn't lost at middleweight since a 1st round DQ loss almost 4 years ago. The combined career winning percentage of the opponents that he has faced so far is approximately 68%. (Bonus stats: Silva only ever had 4 fights at middleweight against fighters with a losing record. None of his last 10 opponents at middleweight had a losing record.)

"The Last Emperor" Fedor Emelianenko (33-years-old)- I show Fedor as being 31-1 (8 TKO's, 16 Submissions) at heavyweight. The consensus # 1 heavyweight for some time now, Fedor is at or near the top of most pound-for-pound lists. It is, however, worth noting that the heavyweight division is generally considered by most experts to be one of the more shallow divisions in terms of talent (I realize that doesn't make it true but it is a widely accepted opinion shared by most MMA insiders, including many heavyweight fighters). Emelianenko hasn't lost at heavyweight since a 1st round TKO stoppage on a cut loss almost 9 years ago. The combined career winning percentage of the opponents that he has faced so far is approximately 65%. (Bonus stats: Emelianenko has had 10 fights at heavyweight against a fighter with a losing record. 3 of his last 10 opponents at heavyweight had a losing record.)

Lyoto "The Dragon" Machida- I show Lyoto as being 16-0 (5 TKO's, 2 Submissions) at light heavyweight. Machida has never been defeated in MMA and, until October of this year, had handily won all of his fights. He did win a close decision against Mauricio "Shogun" Rua in his first defense at UFC 104 but there was some controversy as many thought that Rua should have gotten the nod. Machida just became the consensus number 1 in his weight class this year. The combined career winning percentage of the opponents that he has faced so far is approximately 66%. (Bonus stats: Machida has had 2 fights at light heavyweight against a fighter with a losing record. 1 of his last 10 opponents at light heavyweight had a losing record.)

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Good stuff Rich
Is there a fighter in any weight class that runs their block better than B.J. Penn?

I would have to say that GSP does…simply because he’s fought, defeated, and destroyed the best of the best welterweights in the world and avenged all of his losses. Whereas Penn…while dominant hasn’t fought the best of the best as consistently(although it’s not his fault that the UFC doens’t have ALL of the best LW’s in the world to find this out).

Since his last return to the UFC he’s beaten Pulver, Stevenson, Sherk, and Florian…only Sherk and Florian are/were top ten fighters at the time. How would Penn fare against Alvarez, Kawajiri, Aoki, Maynard, Edgar, and Sanchez? We could all speculate and say that he would destroy them….and he probably would beat all or most of them handily. However, it’s still speculation at this point because he hasn’t fought them…whereas that’s not the case for GSP and the cast of welterweights in his shadow right now.

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by Kelvin Hunt on Nov 27, 2009 1:37 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Good points. I’d also have GSP above him in the pecking order. I mostly just wanted to lay out his 155 lb. resume and show that it’s right up there with most of the other champions. This bunch might have some company soon with Jose Aldo busting down the door. I’m anxious to see Penn’s clash with Sanchez in a couple weeks. Man, if it wasn’t so close to Christmas I’d probably be heading out to Memphis for that one.

by SlickRick00 on Nov 27, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Word

It’s no question that Penn is THAT dude at 155 though…

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by Kelvin Hunt on Nov 27, 2009 1:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Plus

-Machida’s overall level of competition has been lacking up until his last few fights…

-Silva’s run at MW isn’t as deep as GSP….Silva basically has wins over Franklin, Henderson, and Marquardt…all the other kats were respectable…but not cream of the crop..

-You could make a case for Fedor possibly…but that whole run he had of taking freakshow fights cost him IMO.

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by Kelvin Hunt on Nov 27, 2009 1:43 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

If you put a value from 1 to 10 in these three respective categories – Stand-up, Wrestling, BJJ – I don’t think there’s a single fighter who yields a higher score than BJ, but if you factor in Strategic Aptitude, Cardio & Mental Strength there is… he has plenty of fights left before he has “cleaned out” the LW-division.

Bloody hell.

by 3PA on Nov 27, 2009 1:48 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

True. If he’s able to defend against Sanchez, I’d expect him to probably face Maynard next (assuming he beats Diaz). He’d have a much better claim to having cleaned out the division after that. One thing that helps B.J.‘s case against some of his competition in the East is that he does have a win over Takanori Gomi, who has 1st round victories over Kawajiri and the guy that punked Shinya Aoki (Sakurai). I’m not a huge fan of that kind of speculation but it’s probably enough to put the burden on those dudes to come the States if they want to have any claim to being able to beat Penn.

by SlickRick00 on Nov 27, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i saw the first penn / gsp fight

b.j. penn"s face looked perfect. gsp’s looked like a mess. i thought penn won.

yes i am obsessive, obnoxious, in your face and all about covering the spread. those are my good qualities.

by wolfmanshowlforever on Nov 27, 2009 3:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Fedor's face looked a mess in that Roger's fight too...

plus…BJ has leather for skin…lol.

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by Kelvin Hunt on Nov 27, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

exactly

you can’t go by what a fighter’s face looks like to tell who wins. the eyepoke caused alot that “mess”, and gsp did get clipped on the tip of his nose which caused it to bleed alot. the 1 rst fight was close, but i still had gsp winning slightly. that’s all a moot point now, b/c of how badly gsp manhandled bj the 2nd time around. smidgen of vas or not. :)

by bdw on Nov 27, 2009 3:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

rogers fight only went 1 and 1/2 rounds.

penn fight with gsp was 3 rounder or was it for the belt? penn did more damage to gsp’s face then anybody in mma. that is a fact. serra just knocked him down. penn was continuos long drawn out damage.

yes i am obsessive, obnoxious, in your face and all about covering the spread. those are my good qualities.

by wolfmanshowlforever on Nov 27, 2009 3:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

long drawn out damage?

what fight did you watch? all the damage penn did to gsp’s face was done in the 1rst round only. bj gassed after the 1rst. once again their was a bad eye poke that required stitches after the fight. take that eypoke out and i dont see gps’s face looking so bad. penn won the 1rst, gsp won the 2nd two. why does it matter when gsp clearly showed in their 2nd fight who was the better man.

by bdw on Nov 27, 2009 3:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i saw the fight eye pokes happen all the time and gsp's eye's and cheeks

were damage. not broken but damage. stop holding a torch for gsp i don’t agree with you on secound round either it was penn’s round. see ya.

yes i am obsessive, obnoxious, in your face and all about covering the spread. those are my good qualities.

by wolfmanshowlforever on Nov 27, 2009 3:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

dude

not trying to be atagonistic, but you did just ask wether the 1rst fight was a 3 rnder or 5 rnder for the belt. seriously? for real? it kinda makes me think you might not have seen the fight, or could be mixing it up with another. what exactly did penn do in the 2nd round that made you think he won it? gsp didn’t do much, but he did score some takedowns, which were alot more of the nothing that bj did. and i will hold a torch for whomever i please, i thank you. peace! :)

by bdw on Nov 27, 2009 4:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

there is a question mark by the end of sentence. the fight was 3 and 1/2 years ago

it was a split decision. makes me think all you do is watch gsp fights and kneel at his alter. peace war.

yes i am obsessive, obnoxious, in your face and all about covering the spread. those are my good qualities.

by wolfmanshowlforever on Nov 27, 2009 4:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

lol-i believe that you DID watch the 1rst fight, and we agree to disagree

gsp is my my favorite fighter NOW, but he wasn’t always, randy couture was for a long time, and i rooted hard for bj against hughes in both of their fights and stuck up for penn when alot fans said he would lose to sherk from gassing. when bj and gsp fought for the 1rst time, i had no preference and have posted many times (at mmamania, when i used to blog alot there) that i thought the 1rst fight was pretty much a draw and that there was no clear cut winner.

now comes the rematch and these 2 are my both my favorite fighters and a big part of me didn’t want to see that fight b/c i didn’t want to see 1 lose to the other, but a big part of me did b/c i thought at the time it coud be 1 of the greatest mma fights of all time. i didn’t want to pick a winner, but 2 of my mania buds that i respected alot, forced me to pick a winner (1 loved bj, hated gsp, the other loved gsp, hated bj) so i picked gsp going by the rule that a great bigger man always beats a great smaller man. i picked gsp by close 5 rnd decision. as soon as i picked a winner, i felt my allegiance shift towards gsp a slight bit, and then 24/7 type series came out and bj really fell out of grace with me and all that shit he talked about gsp being a quitter and then quitting himself, made the choice easy. GSP!
then the aftermath of bj accusing gsp of cheating and bringing his mommy to court with him was a nail in the coffin to me. i will probably never feel the same way about penn again and rooted for florian to beat him and will be rooting for diego as well( i am a long time diego fan though). once again the 1rst fight could have went either way, and i wouldn’t have had a problem withtem scoring it for bj, or a draw. that’s about all i have left. :)

by bdw on Nov 27, 2009 4:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

no problems here. it says it all in my profile

i have nothing wrong with liking a fighter alot but not to the point where he is some kind of mma immortal. everyone gets beat. even my guy rashad evans. he is my favorite fighter. but i kinda knew what was coming when he fought machida. the reason i like mm4real is their is just people who disagree. on other not named mma outlets there is alot of real hate for certain fighter’s. i don’t hate any fighter but i put nobody on a pedestal. that’s all. it’s cool as mr hunt says we agree to disagree. i’ll say this again i’m on every college football blog and 4 mma blogs and mr hunt runs the best blog by far.

yes i am obsessive, obnoxious, in your face and all about covering the spread. those are my good qualities.

by wolfmanshowlforever on Nov 27, 2009 6:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah i got gsp head and shoulders above everone else in this particular discussion. not only has he dominated his weight class, his last 3 opponents are/were in the top 10 p4p rankings as well. right now, fitch, penn, alves are currently in shitdogs top 10 p4p list,for whatever thats worth, plus i’m pretty sure matt hughes was in alot of p4p top 10’s when gsp beat him the 1rst time for the title. it’s a pretty well known fact that the ww division is the most stacked weight division in mma, and gsp has made it his playground. fortunatly for him, the best ww’s are in the ufc ,sans jake shields, and i don’t see him as much of a threat.
i do count gsp’s wins over bj as legit ww wins b/c they were fought at his(gsp’s) own natural weight class and bj was the ww champ for a short while(could have been longer, if he had stayed). not counting those wins as dominating his “corner of the block” would be the same as not counting bj’s win over jens at lw, b/c jens is really a natural fw (145) and was the 155 lb champ for a short while.
with all that said b.j. is the best lw in the world and has been every bit as dominant as of recent at that weight class as any other champ has had at their respective weight class, but against seemingly slightly lesser opponents as gsp and even a. silva. i though it was kind of funny that aoki has been running his mouth about bj, dana white and the ufc in general and then showed up at the Strikeforce press conference. talk about being a hipocryte.
 anyways as far rating the champs as being most dominant in their weight class i would go.
1: gsp
2: bj and a. silva tied
3: fedor
the lhw division looks wide open now after the rua/machida fight and none of the lighter weight classes seem to be able to keep 1 fighter as a dominat champ. i think if a. silva wante to he could move up to lhw and totally dominate that weight division and probably do well against some of the top hw’s, which is what makes him so special.

by bdw on Nov 27, 2009 3:34 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

“I do count gsp’s wins over bj as legit ww wins b/c they were fought at his(gsp’s) own natural weight class and bj was the ww champ for a short while(could have been longer, if he had stayed). not counting those wins as dominating his "corner of the block" would be the same as not counting bj’s win over jens at lw, b/c jens is really a natural fw (145) and was the 155 lb champ for a short while.”

That’s a good point. I’d say that I completely count their two head to head meetings as a plus for St. Pierre (because, as you noted, it’s not his fault at all that Penn was fighting above his weight class). I just don’t hold them against Penn, if that makes any sense.

You brought up another point to that I hadn’t thought of: Both Penn and St. Pierre have avenged losses against naturally lighter fighters that had a previous win over them in their preferred weight class (Penn avenging his decision loss to Pulver in dominating fashion and St. Pierre avenging his first round loss to Serra in dominating fashion).

by SlickRick00 on Nov 27, 2009 3:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

here is mine

1. anderson silva
2. fedor e.
3. jose aldo
4. b. j. penn
5. matt serra b/c his knockout was more impressive and more lucrative
6. matt hughes his legacy is better
7. lyoto machida
8. patrick cote so you don’t think i hat canadians
9. randy couture for still fighting at 46 and beating 32 year olds
10. gsp could not think of anybody else. peace!!!!!!

yes i am obsessive, obnoxious, in your face and all about covering the spread. those are my good qualities.

by wolfmanshowlforever on Nov 27, 2009 4:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

dude you're having a laugh

10. gsp could not think of anybody else. peace!!!!!!

i see you and bdw were discussing it above so im not going to reopen it with you. all i will say is that is one unfunny joke. you should give GSP his props, dudes done a lot for the sport like him or not

"I had to fight all my life to survive. They were all against me... but I beat the bastards and left them in the ditch." ~ Ty Cobb

by RearNakedPoke on Nov 27, 2009 5:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i'm just having some fun. guy must have a shrine room for gsp.let's see when he faces koscheck again

i think it might be a different result. you gotta give kos props for beating a man 4 inches taller probably 25 pounds heavier at fight time and was willing to strike until he got the takedown. i’ll say it here now. when koscheck fights gsp again i will take the +275 moneyline and take kos.

yes i am obsessive, obnoxious, in your face and all about covering the spread. those are my good qualities.

by wolfmanshowlforever on Nov 27, 2009 5:31 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i’ll be honest and say just for the record that i’m with bdw on that one, but thats neither here nor there. you’re entitled to your opinion…

as for Koscheck, i’m a big fan and am quite eager to see him rematch St. Pierre…i must admit i dont fancy his chances (nor any of the other WW’s for that matter) but im quite intrigued to see if he has improved as much as i think he has. what better way to see than against the WW barometer

"I had to fight all my life to survive. They were all against me... but I beat the bastards and left them in the ditch." ~ Ty Cobb

by RearNakedPoke on Nov 27, 2009 5:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

so gsp is unbeatable in your opinion?

i hope he believes that too.

yes i am obsessive, obnoxious, in your face and all about covering the spread. those are my good qualities.

by wolfmanshowlforever on Nov 27, 2009 6:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

remind me when i said GSP was unbeatable?

"I had to fight all my life to survive. They were all against me... but I beat the bastards and left them in the ditch." ~ Ty Cobb

by RearNakedPoke on Nov 27, 2009 6:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

again there is a question mark at the end of my sentence.

not an exclamation point.

yes i am obsessive, obnoxious, in your face and all about covering the spread. those are my good qualities.

by wolfmanshowlforever on Nov 27, 2009 6:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i saw it, did you see mine

im sure you know the word insinuation…look whatever dude. best of luck

"I had to fight all my life to survive. They were all against me... but I beat the bastards and left them in the ditch." ~ Ty Cobb

by RearNakedPoke on Nov 27, 2009 6:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

rec'd.

"I had to fight all my life to survive. They were all against me... but I beat the bastards and left them in the ditch." ~ Ty Cobb

by RearNakedPoke on Nov 28, 2009 5:15 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, i dont hold the losses to gsp against penn for what he’s done at 155. kudos to penn for at least trying to go up a weight class and prove he’s the best fighter in the world, and he would have been considered just that had he beaten gsp, but gsp didn’t quite get that bump. it was more looked upon as he beat a great “smaller” fighter, and bj could have trained a little harder imo. gsp will have to move up a weight class as well if he wants to be considered as the “the best mma fighter ever” as he has claimed. he might very well meet the same fate as penn, but it wont be due to lack of training.

by bdw on Nov 27, 2009 3:56 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

For real. That guy trains like a beast. If only more guys had his work ethic.

by SlickRick00 on Nov 27, 2009 3:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i'd like to see him throw down with maia

"I had to fight all my life to survive. They were all against me... but I beat the bastards and left them in the ditch." ~ Ty Cobb

by RearNakedPoke on Nov 27, 2009 6:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i love the debating

that’s what community is all about :)

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by Kelvin Hunt on Nov 27, 2009 10:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

lol

"I had to fight all my life to survive. They were all against me... but I beat the bastards and left them in the ditch." ~ Ty Cobb

by RearNakedPoke on Nov 28, 2009 5:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I didn’t mention the featherweight and bantamweight consensus number one fighters, but here’s how they break down:

145 pound champion:
Jose Aldo 23-years-old 16-1 (11 TKOs, 2 Submissions)
64.5% opponents combined career winning percentage
6 opponents with losing records; 0 in his last 10

135 pounds world champion:
Brian Bowles 29-years-old 8-0 (3 TKOs, 5 Submissions)
71.7% opponents combined career winning percentage
2 opponents with losing records; 0 in his last 10

by SlickRick00 on Nov 27, 2009 10:28 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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